The Reality of it all...

edited May 2020 in Echo Canyon
Hello Aetolians,

As many are well aware I am the player of Oonagh....those who frequent the forums can read of many of the things I have done during my tenure on numerous characters across many platforms and organizations. Recently though a dark splotch on the community has seemed to fester and I want to not only take accountability to speak of my actions as a player, but also those which persist that cant seem to shake the line that separates IC and OOC communications.

We have seen as a community many technological leaps since the early days of MUDs, back on Telnet...which to some of our players may be a foreign word. We have seen each other through schoolwork, finals, dating, addiction, marriages, and deaths. When I made Oonagh, it was after me being a historically volatile character was wearing upon me as a person OOC. I created Oonagh and kept his secret identity of me the player secret for upwards of two years.....I had very few problems, in fact Oonagh was beloved by many, encouraging, motivational, and informational. Never had any problems from any players....until it slowly spread who I was, then the community turned on me, comparisons to my previous characters began, and I was discounted as a player completely and as an IC role.

I began to feel the wear and tear that I felt in previous times, because for all intents and purposes there is a collection of a few players who in my....over a decade of playing, have dictated the course of the roleplay environment and if you are not part of that group, you are an outsider, and wrong and bad. Then an opportunity came up, a silver lining so to speak, and change began to happen, immersion came back...roleplay increased, and alot of fun began to happen as the roleplay environment began to diversify. The "old-guard" did not like this so much, and did as they do and began to strike at it with intent to destroy that which would provide change to a game that ultimately NEEDS the excitement many in it's playerbase crave. Because at the end of the day it is a game, with a world that is dynamic and should have change in it constantly, developments, things beyond it being a chatroom with fancy clothes and baubles. Things outside of the circle that provides comfort, because in a fantasy world, there needs to be risk, heartache, strife....not just comfortable happy fun times.

Then the comparisons came...the social justice...the outcry to destroy something different.
So deep and harsh.

Then the OOC attacks, the discounting of ones credit in game.
Novices reaching out IC for knowledge and information and making assessments...
While being told on Discord that you are not a great source of information

Discounted because someone does not agree with your particular brand of roleplay.

Then beyond that getting messages in discord from people you dont even know, who share chat exceprts with you saying that the aforementioned group of people are working actively to remove you and others who agree with you from organizations. Is it hearsay, I dont know....but the attitudes and messages relayed say as much. All while the producer sits back refusing to make an assessment on how this kind of environment is harming the game, and refusing to make an answer or even acknowledge your messages and those of many others who are reaching out for information.

I have been in plenty of IRE games, and no other administrative team would tolerate this kind of nonsense, in fact I find it absolutely cowardly that this persists, because purely alot of the old players that are the issue, are friends with volunteers and admins that couldnt be damned to moderate the Discord Server. I mean theres a few players that have went up and down in the pools so many times you would think they were a buoy.

They like to say that there is a modicum of confidentiality in the Aetolia pools, but really its just a rotating cast of the Old Guard that help their friends and have them join one anothers Order and continue the persistant nonsense that has perpetuated the toxic environment that has been allowed to fester in Aetolia for well over a decade.

Tiur inhereted this mess, and frankly, hes in over his head and I think he knows it.
In fact I think a good portion of the newer playerbase knows it, alongside some of us old players that have seen this go on for years and have been helpless to stop it.

If I get deleted for sharing my feelings, I get it.
I am just hopeful that some of you get to read it and realize that the end of the day its a business and they are going to try and silence it to cover their ass.

At least I wasn't afraid to speak from my heart. Anyone who knows me, knows that about me.
EhtiasBorminchiaTinaEscelikaIazamatSeirXavinRijettaTeaniCallidoraMartinauxArdentOemeria
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Comments

  • I'm not going to lie, and I'm going to keep this short. Situations like these are kind of why I wish you had to retire your active character to go up to pools in all honesty. In any IRE I wish this was the case.

    OonaghTinaEscelikaXavinTeaniArdent
  • I tend to steer clear of OOC chatter and such, but I know that's not worth much if you're on the outs with people who are more OOC.

    Sucks to hear you're having these troubles. For what it's worth, I've appreciated your character's RP  presence, if only in the brief Lesser-related interactions we've had. I hope you can enjoy this wonderful game without OOC issues soon.
    Didi has expressed her esteem of you for the following reason: Smart organized leader.
    Experience Gained: 47720 (Special) [total: 2933660]
    Needed for LVL: 122.00775356245
    OonaghXavinTeani
  • I have things to say about this thread but I'm going to wait a bit to formulate them.
    Ehtias said:

    I'm not going to lie, and I'm going to keep this short. Situations like these are kind of why I wish you had to retire your active character to go up to pools in all honesty. In any IRE I wish this was the case.

    While a nice idea, it would shrink the already tiny, tiny, tiny pool of volunteers down to zero, most likely. Unless this retirement was special and offered different perks, like full return. That's just my opinion from a game perspective.
    OonaghLinXavinTeaniSeurimasMephistolesZaila
  • TiurTiur Producer
    I am very much gathering a lot of information from a lot of places and trying to reply. Pages of concerns from all directions, and I need to sort out the best response. When I fire off too quickly I never get what I meant across and it's always bad.

    BUT I do chime in to say that I'm not going to delete Oonagh. It's okay to disagree with me, to not like me, to not like how I do things, etc.
    EscelikaLinMephistolesOonaghArdentAloliDarim
  • LinLin Blackbird The Moonglade

    EscelikaOonaghMephistolesDarim
  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent


    OonaghDrystin
  • I mean, ill point out the elephant in the room.



    The fact this is a statement a good chunk of people can relate to, and understand without any proof of reference speaks loudly enough.
  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    Oonagh said:

    I mean, ill point out the elephant in the room.



    The fact this is a statement a good chunk of people can relate to, and understand without any proof of reference speaks loudly enough.

    I kinda don't...super duper wanna comment on this, but I think the elephant in this room appears to be more that there's some sketchy metagaming going on, and I don't think sidestepping it in this way is the appropriate response.

  • LinLin Blackbird The Moonglade
    I agree that Kanivara made an obvious typo but I wouldn't call that the elephant in the room
    EscelikaDarim
  • Even if I knew who you were playing on your past few characters, I don't think it has affected how I have gotten to know of Oonagh in the game! I think he is an absolutely hilarious enemy to work against, and the more I know about the character, I got rather impressed.

    Personally, while Discord has helped to make the small Aetolia community feel closer, I also understand how it can embolden people to cast aspersions without care, and how it can blur the lines between IC and OOC communications. It's a difficult boundary to toe; sometimes it is unwittingly crossed, and not everyone can keep the barrier. After all, it's easier to get information about stuff through mediums outside the game, than it may necessarily be to get it in it.

    About differences in roleplay, that's always not going to be easy to convince people to like it, at least IG. I've had this experience before a long time back, and it has always gotten some form of consequences that you may need to be willing to accept. I don't know how much of this experience that you're having has been influenced by OOC conversations though, and I really hope it hasn't been.

    I sincerely hope things look up for you sooner than later, and people think twice about stuff they want to use in-game.

    <3@Oonagh
    OonaghEscelikaArdent
  • Ehtias said:

    I'm not going to lie, and I'm going to keep this short. Situations like these are kind of why I wish you had to retire your active character to go up to pools in all honesty. In any IRE I wish this was the case.

    I just want to say that as someone who is still relatively new to the Aetolia community and whose experiences in IRE have mostly been in another game, the OOC-IC line blurring is much more prevalent here. This is particularly true with the Pools where it feels like everyone who has played this game for long enough already knows who everyone in the Pools played as a mortal, with many current players still being in direct contact with some of them outside of in-game messages etc. Coming from a game where this is heavily frowned upon it is a bit baffling to me every time I hear about these things. Just as a very basic example that doesn't really even involve meta gaming, I have ranted to Keroc with messages, but I know there are players on both sides who talk directly to him on Discord etc.

    I don't think enforcing retirement is a good thing, but I do think that more distance in general would be healthy. Even if I trust the volunteers to be on the up and up, I honestly don't trust the playerbase to not abuse this relationship and use anything they hear from the Pools to metagame.
    OonaghTetchtaEscelikaZaila
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotion
    edited May 2020
    I'd rather not have this be flipped on the dur Naya players. What they choose to do in their RP circle is their business. While I've had my criticisms of the dur Naya in the past when they were largely inaccessible and primarily amongst themselves while in leadership, that evaporated when they stepped down. Hell, even Pilar admitted that it was a legitimate criticism and that they should've done more outward facing stuff. That being said, metagaming isn't cool nor does any of what they do amongst themselves justify it. They're good roleplayers and I'm happy when I get a chance to roleplay with them.

    The recent criticism of dur Naya has stemmed largely from the ridiculous extremes that people in Duiran and the Sentinels have gone to defend Bamathis worship. A God that literally has the God of Artifice, which both orgs stand opposed to, as an Order representative. He is solidly aligned with Shadow -- and yet he's the only Shadow God allowed a shrine in Duiran, and people have gone to really meta lengths to protect him. The dur Naya, including myself, rightly called this out in Sentinel news posts.

    Point is: Bamathis is not a neutral God. He's not even the closest thing that Shadow HAS to a neutral God. Even the one that IS closest to a neutral God has been banned from Duiran and the Sentinels. Y'all who are Duiran folks in his Order should've known that a day would eventually come where you'd have to choose.
    TetchtaDrystinOonaghEscelikaMephistolesArdent
  • edited May 2020
    As an aside, as someone who is in Duiran, I have actually heard almost nothing about this Bamathis/Albedi worship in game. In fact, everything I have heard from either side has been on Discord, including from ex-Celani. Now, whether that just means it is happening in game behind closed doors or it is actually that both sides are actually just playing it out on Discord, I don't know. Not saying my character's opinion is worth anything, or that he even has an opinion about this, but it's strange to me that nothing has actually reached my character even though both sides claim they have so much support for.
    EscelikaDarim
  • edited May 2020
    I also just want to clarify a little bit...since only part of that conversation got posted and likely interpreted incorrectly...



    The part @Lin posted above was a facetious comment made to Fezzix, in which he asked what was going on.
    Nothing was acted on in game based on any of this on my regard at least.
    As I said above the conversation from someone saying OOCly Lin and Sibatti were having issues with Bamathis, and I was just being a turd....cause turds be turds.
    I also just had a long chat with @Seir that clarified the potential mis-interpretation.

    I want to let you know @Sibatti - In your time from when I first started playing, up to current...
    You have been one of the most consistent and strongest Roleplayers I have had the experience of interacting with. People enjoy your company, and your interactions.
    I ...in "big brain time and plotting" wanted to think of ways I could ...legitimately roleplay combatting your RP, because lets face it, im a series of ellipsis and croaks. It was bound to happen and it didnt, and then the whole unfortunate and terribly unnecessary discussion about nazis, and what have you came about. \
    (That is a whole other can of worms I was thankfully not present for)

    Lets not mis-interpret....what people want us to hear or think. There is enough of that going around.
    I invite you to reach out to me and chat, I think I owe you enough to hear your perspective and share honestly what I have been experiencing through this whole interesting arc as well.
    Not even an IC chat, we can just legitimately chat as two players who have had very different stories.
  • Czcibor said:

    Ehtias said:

    I'm not going to lie, and I'm going to keep this short. Situations like these are kind of why I wish you had to retire your active character to go up to pools in all honesty. In any IRE I wish this was the case.

    I don't think enforcing retirement is a good thing, but I do think that more distance in general would be healthy. Even if I trust the volunteers to be on the up and up, I honestly don't trust the playerbase to not abuse this relationship and use anything they hear from the Pools to metagame.
    I think anyone who comes down from the Pools should have a mandated waiting period before they are allowed back onto their mortal characters. A minimum of a few RL months, perhaps, to ensure whatever they learn while up there can't be used when they hop back onto their mortal characters.
    OonaghEscelikaDarim
  • Seir said:

    ...and the fact that emotes once existed that teased and ridiculed other players. All of this left a very unpleasant taste in my mouth when I went up there, because some of those emotes even mocked me as a player. Combined with a few other behaviors and actions, my log ins as a Celani got fewer and fewer, and eventually I stepped down altogether. Now, Tiur has taken actions on a lot of these -- apparently those emotes no longer exist and will never exist again according to folks.

    The biggest question I come away with from this whole thread is "what the hell is an emote that mocks a player?".
    Seir said:


    I'm gonna be frank with you all and re-iterate this point: Aetolia has one of the most toxic playerbases that I have ever seen in any gaming community.

    Strong disagree. I think it's pretty dramatic to claim that Aetolia is that bad. It's got its share of unpleasant people but there really aren't that many of them and the behavior isn't anything that I think is particularly noteworthy.
    image
    IesidSeurimasEscelikaRihrinAloliHaven
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in Attica
    edited May 2020
    A large part of the Duiran support of Bamathis frustration is that there's been opposition to it for months, and repeated asking of various Spirit for some kind of support, which has been super inconsistent and waffling. Even more frustrating? About two years ago when I, Maizin, and Eowyn were Speakers, there was a leadership town hall of sorts with Tiur and the Celani overseeing stuff going on in Duiran, and we were discussing Duiran's role and its intended stance. Want to know what we were told? 'Yeah, Shadow is bad, and you guys should be firmly against it because it corrupts Dendara, and the gods on Duiran's council are pretty hard line against it.' This was reinforced with a bunch of RP from Dhar at the time, and a lot of haranguing from Rhydderch, the resident lore dump NPC at the Core. Fast forward to two years later, and suddenly supporting Shadow gods in such a heavy capacity is totally fine, and all that town hall discussion has been completely overturned.

    On the player level... Sorry, Iesid, but it's not as clean a sweep as you believe. There's been more than a few complaints about your handling of things and your treatment of other players, particularly ones that haven't agreed with you. It's been brought up repeatedly that you're unapproachable and dismissive, and it's made people afraid of voicing objections because the result often tends to be to make things so unpleasant until they're made to want to leave. No one speaks up because many players have been conditioned to believe nothing will be done because nothing HAS been done. 

    You know how people people used to criticize the dur Nayas for being distant and unapproachable? That's kind of how Mulariads are regarded now. Distant, unapproachable, and if you voice dissent, your days are severely numbered. This has been the case multiple times as the experience of various players can attest. 

    People are frustrated and fed up because we feel our hands our tied, and feel like no one is listening when we ask. And when we do ask, how disheartening is it where you're just given a shrug and told to put up with it? How many people have stopped playing or just gone on to play Shadow side? How many are close to quitting playing now because they feel like they're unable to make a stand? Because honestly, the current environment feels like you're not given the time of day unless you're firmly on the Bama Bandwagon. Appearances matter a lot in a game like this, especially when we can't see the full story or full scope. 
    OonaghMephistolesEscelikaSanirRhineCzciennTinaAloliDarim
  • edited May 2020
    @Phoenecia I'm going to disagree with you on those points. The exact opposite of everything you just said is true from my 50 day experience with Duiran. Bamathis has been supported by just about anyone I brought it up to, as a newbie seeking a Divine. Iesid and Oonagh have both been open and responsive to questions and requests, even giving a relative newbie the opportunity to serve as a Minister.

    Who are you talking about? How do you know this while not being apart of a city? Who are the frustrated people?

    The language you used in this post is also exaggerating things and ignoring context by not stating it. If you have examples of being ignored, disregarded, days being numbered, and all the other claims in your post. If this has happened multiple times and players can attest to it, I would like to hear the full story as well.

    EDIT: I'm not trying to attack Phoenecia, I'm just curious what she's talking about and want more information.

    I don't see a bandwagon. His purpose is pretty straightforward and aligns well with Duiran's goals. It aligns with everyone's goals, none of us wants to see our world die.

    EDIT: EDIT:
    I don't think this topic is about Bamathis or Duiran. Instead, I think this topic is being used to muddy the waters further and cement a narrative that just isn't true. There was roleplay behind this; just because it did not happen in front of you does not mean it did not happen. The path to resolving our conflict of opinion or lack of understanding is more roleplay, not a riot on Discord that is perpetuated in part by non-Duirani bystanders. It's important to remember that Aetolia's environment is inherently reliant on a collaborative effort that responds to everyone's notions or actions, not the fan fiction or 'ideal model' you personally have in mind for what the game's story should be.


    This is the part I agreed with the most.
    CallidoraOonaghDarim
  • edited May 2020
    Phoenecia said:

    You know how people used to criticize the dur Nayas for being distant and unapproachable? That's kind of how Mulariads are regarded now. Distant, unapproachable, and if you voice dissent, your days are severely numbered.

    No idea about these dur Naya people, but Iesid has been incredibly far from 'distant' and 'unapproachable' ever since I started playing. Quite the opposite of that, in fact. Don't believe Rhine has been, either.

    Speaking from experience in other IRE games, though, people generally feel that way when their tantrums aren't listened to. Older players shouldn't be bowed to and respected simply because they're an older player. Especially if they haven't had any sort of presence for years. Doubly so if things have changed in that time, and they're incapable of adapting to change.

    If you want to leave a faction because you dislike things they did, then leave? You don't have to start berating leaders just because they acted in a way that you personally didn't want them to. Alternatively, contest their position if there's supposedly a lot who don't agree with it as you seem to imply.
    EscelikaCallidoraCzciennOonaghDarimTeaniMephistoles
  • I'm not going to name names or point fingers, but Aetolia is really toxic if you're not part of the "important and famous" cliques. If you don't know the right people, you're worthless. And they will not be afraid to let you know that. I have seen it in different ways with different groups since I started playing back in 2006-ish.
    I've had characters who have been shunned because they don't fit in with the cliques and enemied to organizations for unicorns reasons that I am pretty sure is because of miscommunication because english is not my first language. I've also seen others be shunned both icly and oocly because of who they are.
    And I don't mean this happened way way back. I heard it a couple of weeks ago. I heard someone YESTERDAY being afraid of airing their opinions to the community because they knew people wouldn't listen to them.
    So yes, Aetolia is toxic. However, I don't think anything can be done about that. People won't change and can always blame their behaviour, at least icly, on "rp". If there is hard proof of metagaming, that can be reported, but I have a feeling not much will be done because they are "highly respected and loved characters" and we can absolutely not piss them off by putting our foot down and shrubbing them for a few weeks cause all the other "highly respected and loved characters" will be upset about it.

    As a small side note, Oonagh, no idea who you used to play, but if you see me around, hit me up for some rp if you want! If I'm not busy, I'm always interested!
    ArdentRihrinOonaghXavinEscelikaDarimTeani
  • KarhastKarhast Enorian
    I (unsurprisingly) have some very strong thoughts about the entire Bamathis matter, but it is a bit of a derail for this thread. Please do message me sometime, @Escelika, if you're curious about a further persppective on the matter. As it stands, I think more than a few people here are being a tad disingenuous, and that this thread has been mishandled by the community after some five or so posts in. 
    ElenePhoeneciaDarimHaven
  • I think anyone who has played for long enough or multiple characters has times they can point out that they were metagamed against, or that volunteers targeted them, whether as a joke or maliciously. Everyone has had these stories and it feeds itself, and makes people more likely to think like that when it happens. Imagined or real, it always feels real to the person who feels victimized. There have been plenty of times I've felt this way, on my character and past ones. Gone through all the things previously mentioned here There isn't a fix that can make it all go away other then being decent to one another oocly no matter what happens icly. Everyone is trying to have fun. Things won't always go your way, events won't always go how you want. You have two responsible options when that happens. RP against it icly and take it as a chance to have some fun conflict RP with people who are normally your allies. Or ignore it. Venting about it ooc is fine, but it should stop at venting. And people need to stop taking venting as being more than venting. It isn't an admission they will metagame, or that anything more will come from it. They are blowing off steam to keep themselves from doing anything meta.

    Spying on each other, taking snippets of vents and trying to use them to prove what a bad person another player is. That's petty and cruel. Does nothing to heal and make the game better, and just drives us further apart and makes us more distrustful. You are hurting the game by perpetuating a stereotype that most of the time doesn't even exist. When someone feels victimized there isn't a right or wrong. Feelings aren't right or wrong, they are feelings, opinions, not facts. You don't prove someones feelings wrong. They don't need to prove them right. It's a feeling. All living things have the right to feel however they want. We communicate to reconcile our feelings and get to a point we feel better about ourselves. Help your fellow players feel better. It's said all the time but always seems the first thing forgotten when some event doesn't go our way. Be decent to each other.

    If you really find you can't get along with someone. You can't get any positive RP conflicts from their actions, you can't be content with just staying out of it, they just hit all your buttons. Well, that's why we have an ignore feature in the game. Use it. In this current thing with Bamathis it sounds like the majority of Duiran got some really great RP out of it, and it was heavily influenced and progressed logically icly. Some may not like where it went, that it wasn't fun for them, but is that really justification to try and ruin the fun and good RP everyone else was getting out of it? Fight against it icly, and I can guarantee you'll have more fun, even if you don't win, then just trying to handle it oocly, and making yourselves angrier and angrier. If you can't be decent to each other, at least have the decency to ignore them instead of feeding the hate cycle.

    Finally, things change day to day in Aetolia. Both players and from an admin stance. Changes will happening. Basing things on a discussion that happened years ago even with admin isn't very feasible. Getting stuck in the past and the way things were is a very real problem that many older players struggle with. Things change, a lot of us don't like it, but they do. Current day aetolia isn't the same as it was years ago, or months, or even weeks ago sometimes. And as people who have led an org can tell you, after it's changed, forcing it to try and go back in time doesn't work. Your orgs flourish the most when you find a new path for them to walk naturally. It stimulates activity and RP, a passing of the guard, a catalyst for players to change their older characters. Anytime you try and force it back, you cause bad feelings lose members. Some changes will be mistakes, and you grow from those. Many are great things. The history helps informs us, but it doesn't justify the present. The past is the past. The present is now. Don't be stubborn about changes and insist they are wrong because it's not how your character was raised and cause of things that happened years ago. They make up your character but they don't define all you can be. If you can't adapt and change and grow, what are you still playing your character for? Take the changes and your characters views and meld them together and come up with something that fits. It will give you RP, and give others around you fun RP, and we are all here for fun. It's a game. Not to be right. This isn't a game you can win or lose. It's to have fun.

    OonaghCzciennXavinAnsidiaEscelikaDarimOemeria
  • edited May 2020
    I think Aishia has a very good point. Why is it that time after time, again and again, Duiran and Enorian are presented with 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' scenarios as part of events? Why is it that we keep getting events where the options presented to us are 'do this thing that goes against the belief structure of your org, or change your org's belief structure to fit this other option' and then no matter what is done it blows up in our faces? How many times over the past decade has Duiran or Enorian had an event where the players stuck to their guns and did what has been pounded into them since 2008 or earlier only to be punished for it or have the event blow up because an admin wanted it to go a certain way so an npc light the fuse?

    There are valid arguments for and against Bamathis. But you can't fault players or characters for being skeptical when they take the past into account. If Bamathis was always intended to be a neutral god that the whole playerbase should be getting behind, merging -just- Severn's order into Bamathis', explicitly listing him as a Shadow god, and making high ranking members of Severn's order, as well as Severn himself, representatives was probably not the best way to do it. And then there is the lack of buy in on Spirit side due to the fact that Spirit's gods are absent at worst or unwilling to publicly state the direction they want their orgs to go in.

    If this is the new direction for Aetolia, that's all fine and good, but it needs substantial backing from admin both oocly and icly in the form of active godshells reinforcing the direction it needs to go. Right now? It's a bit of a freaking mess, quite similar to the mess that was Slyphe having mixed tether order members. And there are still people who are mad about how that was resolved.

    Edit: I'm just going to add that I don't have a horse in the game re. right or wrong behavior on the part of players. I'm largely trying to stay out of that. I view this whole situation with Bamathis and worship of Albedi gods as the responsibility of the admin team. The players can only work with and react to what they are given.

    Edit 2: I also want to say, regarding any accusations of metagaming, please -please- remember that just because you haven't seen the roleplay doesn't mean that it hasn't or isn't happening. I don't think people going out of their way oocly to stomp on other is something that happens nearly as often as we might think.

    PhoeneciaKarhastDarimEscelikaMjollRijetta
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee
    Breaking my heart.
    Ardent
  • Duiran and Enorian are presented with 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' scenarios as part of events


    That just really seems like a Good and Light kind of problem, to me. Because the Dark and Evil just burn the village down and call it a day. Or grapple with the price of the Power they sought and turn Good.
    Didi has expressed her esteem of you for the following reason: Smart organized leader.
    Experience Gained: 47720 (Special) [total: 2933660]
    Needed for LVL: 122.00775356245
    OonaghDarimEscelikaRijetta
  • Seurimas said:

    Duiran and Enorian are presented with 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' scenarios as part of events


    That just really seems like a Good and Light kind of problem, to me. Because the Dark and Evil just burn the village down and call it a day. Or grapple with the price of the Power they sought and turn Good.
    You aren't wrong. But it smacks of the old "Lol I'm going to present the party's Paladin with a situation that is engineered to make them fall no matter what they do" sort of crap that D&D game masters who think they're clever like to pull. Good guys having bad consequences from being good guys is fine some of the time. But honestly, it feels like it happens damn near every time here.

    ArdentKarhastEscelikaRijettaNola
This discussion has been closed.