Community Behaviour

This discussion was created from comments split from: LOVE.
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  • edited March 2020
    Context:

    For a very very very very long time @Benedicto use to whine and gripe and bitch and moan any time darkies showed up with +1 than them, or brought down the fist of God in the form of overwhelming numbers, or anytime anything was considered 'unfair'. I empathized with him, having been on the receiving end of such tragedies. We sort of bonded, and I started trying to reign darkies in for a long time when things were getting out of hand.

    To never get the same treatment back. Anytime Benedicto would do it, it was because we did it. Even though I was actively fighting against it. He had no restraint, no sense of fairness when they were winning. In any other scenario, this is 100% completely fine, because everyone does it, we all do it, whatever. But when I put effort into helping a friend of mine have a more enjoyable time only for him to never do it for me, and then he turns around and picks a fight with an organization that one of my characters is ICly tied to and allowed to defend, he threatens to crush an entire org with all of Spirit tether if I participate! I got mad, lost my shit, cussed him hard. I went overboard, ngl, but his threat was overboard. I just reacted in kind, honestly.

    We stayed mad about it the last year or so, finally I approached him to squash it and move on. And then not even a month fucking later he's taking 6 people (at least) against an order of 3, maybe 4, in an org v. org type of fight the Order is already at a disadvantage in (no matter what, they lose shrines, while the Templars just get pk'd??).

    [snipped]
    Copperhead of the Third Spoke says to you, "Intelligence matrix in moniker Bulrok reveals above average results when compared alongside proximal presence."
    LinRhinePhoenecia
  • Maybe sometimes it's not what you say but how you say it.
    AeryxXavin
  • I'm openly aggressive to counter act the ridiculous amount of passive aggressive that permeates Aetolia.
    Copperhead of the Third Spoke says to you, "Intelligence matrix in moniker Bulrok reveals above average results when compared alongside proximal presence."
    PhoeneciaVahn
  • And sometimes it's the information being presented and not the tone in which it's being presented that matters. Bene has been engaging in this behavior, this behavior affects the community, this behavior is now being discussed in the love thread where Bene was boasting about said behavior. If he doesn't want that behavior discussed, he probably shouldn't boast about that behavior publicly.

    (Spinesreach): Xiuhcoatl says, "Oh man, grab the children-corn. This is gonna be good."
    Phoenecia
  • BenedictoBenedicto Tentacles Errywhere!
    Eydis said:

    And sometimes it's the information being presented and not the tone in which it's being presented that matters. Bene has been engaging in this behavior, this behavior affects the community, this behavior is now being discussed in the love thread where Bene was boasting about said behavior. If he doesn't want that behavior discussed, he probably shouldn't boast about that behavior publicly.

    The video had nothing to do with the events that have happened today. If you've not watched the video, it is literally just a joke about people doing impressions of military leaders saying 'To bed!' - I literally don't know what else to tell you.
    image
    LinAloli
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight School
    Bulrok - I love you to pieces. Even when you're wrong #honeygang.

    That said and jokes aside I'm not even going to argue if this is the right medium or not. But if a Guild is picking on an Order, that Order is by no means obligated to face that guild alone. Bring in the cavalry and curbstomp the offenders. RP with your tether and rally support for a coalition because you best believe that guild's members probably not all sporting the same god. If the org can't do that...welp, probably shouldn't burn so many bridges.

    If you're concerned that it'll escalate to full-scale tether fight and get out of control then I propose that tether leadership use a special clan to outline victory and stale-mate conditions early on that's agreeable to both sides for a full-stop. Let's show the admin that we can handle war and give us some of our toys back!

    #TearsAreGoodForFarmingToo
    #SquadGoals
    #IosShouldDeclareOnDamaForTheLulz
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    EydisStineBenedictoAeryxZailaAloliXavin
  • edited March 2020
    @Haven \/\/

    Nah can't do that, though. For instance. This one time Alathesia and some other noncom Iosyne member were hanging out in Omeis place and talking smack. Whatever happened that night got Seir to rally all of Spirit tether into beating on Iosynes order so much that I griefed my first person ever and killed Aymah every time she stepped outside of a city until Seir quit his bullshit. Benedicto already threatened to involve the entire tether once, just like that, but people on the evil side of the game have principles and shit and aren't going to get involved just because their friends with the people getting stomped OOCly.

    [snipped]

    You know what happens when someone is doing something dumb on shadow side and they ask for help? We ask them questions, figure out what's going on, and if they're due for a beating, we tell them to suck it up and eat the beating. Spirit suggests shit like that (the issueing), regardless of right or wrong, and then preaches about how they're the good guys OOCly on the forums. I've about had it with this bullshit, and I've about had it with Tiur hanging out in that fucking discord and supporting these toxic cliquey fucks, too.

    So, no, man. I'll name and shame until a mod steps in and sweeps all this bullshit under the rug, and everyone who does this type of bullshit can go back to thinking they're good people and I'm the asshole because I type mean instead of being passive aggressive.
    Copperhead of the Third Spoke says to you, "Intelligence matrix in moniker Bulrok reveals above average results when compared alongside proximal presence."
    HavenSkiva
  • BenedictoBenedicto Tentacles Errywhere!
    There seems to be a huge misunderstanding occurring, so I'll do my best to illuminate the situation.

    The Templar have a set of post-Knighthood requirements. Within these requirements is what's known as 'The Rite of Cleansing' and to complete this, one of the missions is to destroy 5 enemy shrines. The post-Knighthood path is new (installed since I've been GM) and so as we've grown in the number of Knights, there's a number of us with this requirement.

    This is no different to similar requirements I've seen/experienced from other organisations.

    Due to the number of Templar players who have this requirement outstanding (the entire Knighthood), it was decided that we would make it a 'guild event' - rally the troops, have RP amongst the guild and create a unified sense of purpose. The other option was to just let every member go after whatever shrines they wanted. The danger of this being that it would be that one individual against an entire Order, and it could potentially be numerous Orders all angry at the Templar at the same time.

    To that end, we decided to settle on a singular 'enemy' deity to target in this Templar crusade. A meeting was held IG with all the Knighthood with all the reasons explained and discussed etc. The parameters were to each complete the five shrine destruction as noted in the Rite. Once a shrine is destroyed, the job is done. The enemy can be left to re-raise if they wish, Temps are to leave it alone. If you were attacked, then defend yourself. Otherwise, the Order members were to be left untouched. As of this moment in time, there is not one Iosian Order member who has been attacked by a Templar. Rosdes (Templar), I believe, has been the only casualty.

    I actually wanted it to be Bamathis, but I was dissuaded by other members of the guild, and say what you want about Iosyne and her tenets but this runs pretty contrary to what the Temps stand for as noted in her HELP file:

    Her followers - sadists and killers, bloodletters and warmongers - are as driven and obsessed as She in demonstrating their application of brutality and savagery.


    The intention was never to 'pick' or 'grief' anyone - as I said, so far, Rosdes is the only person that's actually died and shrines, whilst time consuming to put back up, can be reinstated with a minimum of fuss. I apologize profusely if this has been the perception, but as you can see from my outline above (and any other Templar player will verify with you), the parameters were agreed upon in such a way that the potential consequences of this would be minimal for all parties whilst allowing the Templar Knighthood to complete their requirements in one fell swoop.
    image
    SeurimasHavenAeryxAloli
  • Tbh legit do not care about the IC/RP reasons. I did not have IC/RP reasons to stop shadow from being assholes or to not join in on their fun, I had a working moral compass and was raised in such a way that I felt obligated to sit out or speak out against people who may or may not have been ruining the game for other people, regardless of how small or large.

    You could have changed the requirement or let people work it out individually. Changing the requirement is like the #1 thought that comes to my head when I ask myself 'how could this have all been avoided without running into the issues of one lone templar vs. all of Bamathis order?!'
    Copperhead of the Third Spoke says to you, "Intelligence matrix in moniker Bulrok reveals above average results when compared alongside proximal presence."
    EydisAloli
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight School
    There's so much brewing animosity from both sides and bad faith. It's all or nothing and it makes me... not sad but definitely disappointed that our sides can't get together OOC often. It's probably because there's no real avenue for open communication to air our grievances because there's this fear of hurting someone's feelings. So it just festers and grows until it blows up over something, that to me, feels so insignificant. That's my two cents.

    At the end of the day, do what you gotta do brosaf.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    MoxieAloliCayn
  • This is a love thread. However much I love watching the Macy's Thanksgiving Parade of forum brigades and unrelated personalities crawling out of the woodwork (including people who don't even play!), take it elsewhere.
    LinAeryxCzciennAloli
  • @Benedicto You boasted about planning battles with Stine and what that experience is. In a Love thread. Someone else critiqued it in the same thread in which it was posted. That's the link.

    Re: Your story, my only issue with the IC reasons is that they seem to function as vehicles for sating your ooc justifications and ego. I don't mean that in a cruel way, I mean to observe where the other party is coming from and why there's this unresolved conflict you guys need to squash. This could be a singular event that doesn't fit the pattern Bulrock has established for the past year or two but it seems like either way that beef still like...exists and needs to be handled.

    @Haven I think an IC solution to the problem is a great idea. I agree with not being able to get together. It creates a niceness pressure cooker.

    (Spinesreach): Xiuhcoatl says, "Oh man, grab the children-corn. This is gonna be good."
    AloliBenedicto
  • RazmaelRazmael Administrator, Immortal
    edited March 2020
    I don't think stifling discussions on community behaviour is healthy, so on that point I'm going to let this topic run its course. That said, some things said were outright inflammatory and don't belong in a civil conversation.

    As such, I've taken two actions:
    1) I've removed those comments as best I could without upsetting the context of the discussions, and banned Bulrok from the forums for a couple of weeks for instigating them.

    2) I'm splitting this into its own topic because let's keep the love thread for love, come on guys.
    BruinCzciennBenedictoNazuxosAloliEydis
  • edited March 2020
    So now that this is in its own thread, I don't understand the outrage. Didn't Bamathis' order declare war on Slyphe's a few months back, when his order vastly outnumbered Slyphe's. And I'm sure this has happened countless time to with the names and roles being switched around. I hate griefers more than anyone but I don't really see how any of these very short-term and rare conflicts that stem organically from RP can be considered griefing in any way.

    @Eydis I don't know who you are, but I am pretty sure that post was not a boast. He had been pretty excited about him and Stine plotting Templar stuff in private channels where there would be no point in boasting. Have you considered that actually some people just want to show some love for the game, their fellow players, and the interactions that come from it in the thread dedicated to it?
    AeryxAloli
  • .

    I think the context of the situation has been pretty well established? The things he's excited about plotting about are pretty obviously the de facto war that was started. Curb stomping a nearly dead order and going on forums immediately after and being like YEAH BRO MAN PLOTTING BATTLES IS GREAT BRO is pretty unambiguous? I'm not really sure how to connect the dots any clearer than they have been already, unless you're just doing this to gaslight the obvious.
    AloliXavinBenedicto
  • BenedictoBenedicto Tentacles Errywhere!
    edited March 2020
    The suggestion that this event to sate my own ego is just....well. I don't understand. I organized an entire guild event, got the guild to RP and discuss it and then let them go and do their jobs as Knights...for my own selfish reasons? It doesn't make sense. Benedicto, other than giving the order as GM, played just as large a part as anyone else. I gave each Templar the option to be involved and not a single one said they didn't want to take part.

    Buls post suggests that the Templar were roving around as a group of six fighting a much smaller Order. The reality was each Templar was largely alone when they took out their allocated shrines. At one point the only people online considered to be 'PKers' within the guild were me and @Aisling whilst Iosyne's Order had Mazzion, Tatia, Meltas and Ayuna all active and online. Canasius actually tried to stop me as well. There was no fighting outside of a 1v1 that I had with Canasius and then Mazzion. Mazzion and Stine had a 1v1 encounter. Fezzix killed Rosdes because she tried to defile a linked Spirean shrine and she took it in good faith.

    There seems to be a suggestion of 'bullying' but that was sincerely not the case at all. Me and Tatia RP'd in game and have spoken OOC and she is absolutely fine with it. I actually had a laugh with Mazzion in tells when we fought 1v1. If we'd wanted to 'curb stomp' a dead Order, the Templar could just have more easily gone for poor Ivoln.

    As Czcibot said, in recent memory I've dealt with two instances of Slyphian shrines being defiled for either 'training purposes' (Bama's Order) or because we wouldn't give a rude person the cure for undeath (Carnifex). In each instance we just got on. I didn't complain to the people involved or take it to the forums. I accepted the RP behind it and got on.

    It seems the people who are most upset by this are the people who aren't actually involved.
    image
    AloliAeryxXavin
  • edited March 2020
    And I did not deny (or confirm, because I honestly don't know if there was more to the plotting than what has been executed either) that. But that doesn't mean it was necessarily a boast. As I said, it's actually perfectly okay and expected for people to express their love of the game/players/interactions in the love thread. You might have some preconception about the intent, but that's like complaining about potential thoughtcrimes. Maybe the problem of "tether tribalism" people keep referring to starts with the fact that people always want to see the worst in the people on the other side.
    AeryxAloli
  • Czcibor said:

    So now that this is in its own thread, I don't understand the outrage. Didn't Bamathis' order declare war on Slyphe's a few months back, when his order vastly outnumbered Slyphe's.

    It was me and 2-3 other people, and we caught even fights over it. (And then my non-duelist participants who didn't even have aura were hunted down and killed repeatedly over it :) )
    Toz says, "Dishonor on you (Mjoll), dishonor on your family (Seirath), dishonor on your cow (Bulrok)"
    Cayn
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight School
    I propose this thread be used as a way to air grievances. Air out all the laundry so we can heal.

    #I'dLikeMoreTeaPlz.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    AloliEydisSibatti
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight School
    Since Severn's Order got dissolved, would it be better if Orders got the militia treatment for its members(not congregation)? Where it's on the honorsline. (If you really wanna hide your order so bad for whatever reason, there's an arti to hide honors)
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    Aloli
  • edited March 2020
    i've no interest in the discussion about any particular person's moral alignment or whatever.
    Benedicto said:

    This is no different to similar requirements I've seen/experienced from other organisations.

    i'm curious about this. as somebody who has been involved in writing or editing guild progression requirements at all levels for 3 guilds (indorani, sciomancers, illuminai), as well as having been in numerous guilds on both sides of the game, i've never seen a guild with a 'shrine destruction' requirement. other than requirements i've written, i can't say for certain that there's never been an *option* to destroy shrines as a progression task, but it has never been a requirement for progression.

    furthermore, when i went on a little bit of a shrine burning rampage on my previous character - completely based on that character's RP - i was roundly shouted-down in the court of popular opinion that is """Seir's Delve Discord Server""" (or was it here in the forums? idk, idc enough to look it up) by members of both tethers. in fact, i think Toz was particularly disapproving. anyways, iirc, the objections to my instigation were something like: i didn't have an order or congregation affiliation at the time, which meant the targeted order couldn't retaliate in any meaningful way. the asymmetry of the conflict, on top of the irritation of having to replace shrines, was seen as very un-fun. ultimately, i relented, because my goal wasn't then and isn't now to be anything but fun (even if playing a """bad guy""").

    with the above background in mind, my questions:

    do these sorts of objections not still hold true in this scenario (guild vs order)? after all, the flip side of one individual with no order/congregation is many people with many affiliations attacking a single order in that the conflict is highly asymmetrical (altho it's a case of too many targets to reasonably retaliate against rather than none). if they don't, why not?

    what other guilds currently have (or even have had any time since 2017, since that's when i started playing) a progression *requirement* to destroy shrines? this is maybe pure curiosity on my part, but i've never encountered it in aetolia. i can definitely see why certain guilds might want to have/make beef with gods - especially, let's be frank, two of enorian's guilds since no shadow guild really cares on an organizational level - but if the (largely mechanical) asymmetry issue i referenced is real, it seems like pk-oriented conflict is probably not the most fun way to do it.

    i anticipate at least one answer to the first question is that the targeted order could attack the guild's patron's shrines. it seems to me like this muddies things a bit, though, since then that patron's order might reasonably get involved. the conflict becomes even more asymmetrical at that point (although, i suppose, not hugely-so, as most orders aren't very populous).

    more curiosity - why were people in the templar guild reticent to target bamathis's shrines? on its face, selecting iosyne seems... well, it makes sense RPly, but given the relative inactivity of her order (especially compared to the warlord's), it looks either cowardly or calculated to make the requirement easier. i assume that's not why focusing on the warlord was ultimately reject, though, right? [[ETA: these are just the two options that immediately occurred to me - i'm not trying to passive-aggressively imply i really believe anything untoward was going on. i genuinely have no clue, and i've no reason to think literally anything is actually the case without some insight from those involved.]]
    (Congregation): Iosyne says, "I made a cup."

    Horkval are a feature...
    HavenAloliEydis
  • well... my post is late because i took a lot of time to think about it without refreshing, but idk, the questions aren't worthless
    (Congregation): Iosyne says, "I made a cup."

    Horkval are a feature...
  • BenedictoBenedicto Tentacles Errywhere!
    The Templar have had a couple of run-ins with Divine Orders that I can remember. Chakrasul's Order was the last one.

    In respect of the Bama question it was because of his status in Duiran that meant the envoy members weren't keen on causing anything to rock the boat. As you say, Iosyne fits very neatly from an RP perspective. The goal wasn't to 'win' anything, it was to allow the Knights to complete their (completely optional) post Knighthood req. Hence why they were given the choice if they wanted to be involved or not. All of them wanted to be involved *because* of the fact it became a guild/unified engagement rather than leaving them at the mercy of facing an order on their own.

    I'd like to just reiterate that participation in this was completely optional and the requirement is for post-Knighthood for guild rewards. Not really any kind of additional progression.
    image
    HawaAloli
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight School
    Mazzion said:

    What....the old guy is posting. Yes, yes I am.

    What can we all do? Calm down. Try better options, maybe talk to your opponent first, even if in a ooc manner when trying to pull off a large scale conflict option. Before, not after. Reach out to the other side in a constructive way. I try to always be open to any questions. I don't horde my skills and will help anyone from any tether anytime you ask (if I am not afk). If you want to gloat, keep it to yourself. If you want to be an unicorns, keep it to yourself. If you want to say good fight, but with no condescending manner, do it. If you want to genuinely help, reach out. It may be tough at first, but keep trying. I try to be better every day.

    Ramblings from an old guy.





    Needs repeating.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    TeaniCaynTenshyo
  • Benedicto said:


    In respect of the Bama question it was because of his status in Duiran that meant the envoy members weren't keen on causing anything to rock the boat. As you say, Iosyne fits very neatly from an RP perspective. The goal wasn't to 'win' anything, it was to allow the Knights to complete their (completely optional) post Knighthood req. Hence why they were given the choice if they wanted to be involved or not. All of them wanted to be involved *because* of the fact it became a guild/unified engagement rather than leaving them at the mercy of facing an order on their own.

    I don't think we would have minded; nothing is even official there. People's reaction is pretty lukewarm to it overall. There's less enthusiasm for or against it than I originally planned for.

    On another note: has anyone seen that cat I was keeping in a bag? I think it got out like six weeks ago...
    Lin
  • I think the problem is responding to IC situations with OOC reasoning. This is the very definition of meta gaming and it never ends well. So what if you and someone else are friendly OOC? That should NOT affect choices made IC unless your character is the merciful type or something. I'm on friendly terms with Zynti but that didn't change my response when he was raiding Spines. I hunted him constantly on Tcanna and I'm sure that wasn't fun for him OOCly but that's the nature of RP.

    I'd really like to see both tethers and all guilds/orders/cities growing a pair and acting IC how they were made to without people getting upset OOC. 
    AloliRhineCzciennAeryxZailaCaynNola
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight School
    Having spoken with quite a few people on both sides of the fence, the general consensus seems to be stop pretending your own unicorn don't stank. Accept that maybe we're all equal pieces of 'unicorn' or quit demonizing the other tether for doing it.

    @Drystin To be fair, both sides used to do that to varying degrees of success. Especially shadow when I used to play years back. Since my return, however, the atmosphere of the entire game has changed. People have gotten older. Some matured. Some stayed the same. But everyone seems to have gotten sick and tired of other people's bullshit. Which is perfectly justified I think for the long time players. Having to play nice all the time or be ridiculed by the mob swarm only bred an environment where passive aggressiveness reigned as king. And we have what we have today in large part due to that in my opinion.

    I think we should take @Mazzion's advice and all take a step back to chill. In good faith. Just start being straight up with one another. If you got grievances, don't be dumb about it but air it out. Don't let it bottle up. The community needs to heal and move forward.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
  • AeryxAeryx Docking Nipsy's pay
    Here's my perspective, as someone who is a run of the mill non-leadership Templar who participated in this. Benedicto did set it up in character. The meeting was interesting, and we even had someone from the Syssin trying to spy on it and got killed for it. Myself, and my character both, think it was sort of corny to pick the easiest target. Did me or my character make note of that? Nope. Do I think that picking the easiest target is something not worth doing? Nope. It drives conflict. I took down shrines, solo, by myself. It was the first time I've ever done it on this character or the last character I played. It was interesting. Noone came to stop me, and hell, nobody has even enemied me to the Order. If the Order doesn't care enough to even enemy me, then why have someone jumping in to call it 'griefing'?

    Fact: Each side does things to the other that is distasteful.

    Fact: People do find any form of losing in this game toxic(not everyone, but a good amount do), as Mazzion said.

    Opinion: Out of character things such as webs, clans, and Discord servers have only doubled down on the tribalism. Tribalism in this game will not be solved by the players. It can only be steered into a more positive thing by the administration.

    My hope: The administration will one day actually figure out what this game is supposed to be about. Is it Shadow vs Spirit or is it Sapience vs Albedos? If you're going to have shades of either option, for the love of god, please stop teasing and pick one of them instead of having both. It doesn't make for anything positive other than the sort of thing we've seen here on the forums tonight and in the game in other avenues.
    Childhood's over the moment you know you're gonna die.
    HavenPhoeneciaIesid
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