Best Of

There's a lot that's been said, and I'm late to the convo but there's few things I wanted to touch on in no particular order.

1. I agree that there IS a lot of snowflakiness in terms of people being too sensitive, and not wanting to rock the boat, especially where allies are concerned. People seem to complain extremely loudly not about why it's being rocked and how we can stop it, but simply because it is being rocked at all. These types of people strike a particular nerve with me, because it perpetuates the "I want conflict only when I want it, and only if it works out well for my agenda" attitude instead of just being able to take an L.

2. There's definitely a MASSIVE bleeding of OOC vendettas people have against others that they drag IC because they have no separation between the two, or simply choose to ignore it when it suits them.

3. A number of players like to say really nasty things about other players, make up outright lies about them for absolutely no reason, and then act surprised AF when they get called out for it and or the person starts behaving negatively toward them for it. There's also the culture of cliques seeing their own friends do something like this, and instead of putting their toxic, lying ass friend in check, they always defend their friend against the people they gaslighted to begin with.

4. I'm sure most people know that I'm a black man, and not that this is a qualifier (because it should not be), but never have I picked up a game or watched a movie that dealt with things like slavery, racism, facism, or otherwise negative things that often get attached to politics and thought "Wow, I really hate this movie/game and how dare they portray that here." I personally enjoy it when these avenues get explored, because to me these are relatable storytelling elements that you get to interact with and impact yourself. I'd never hold it against another player like @Elene doing something their Bloodlochian Overlord self would do, such as having a bunch of children murdered or your slaves whipped with salt rubbed into their wounds. Aetolia, to me, is easily one of the most adult-themed games you can play and if anyone expects anything less, idk what to tell you.

5. I think some of what's being talked about in this thread goes back to the post @Haven made a while ago about playing the game, vs winning the game. Some people feel as if because they aren't okay with darker themes, the rest of the game shouldn't be engaged in them, or in the very least, they personally should not have to be subjected to them. To me, this is unrealistic unless you just plan on buying a house and perma afking in it to ignore the reality of what's going on in the rest of the game.

6. I'm in shadow webs from time to time, but everytime I have been most people have been generally cool. I'm aware of the few people that tend to be in the webs that show sexually predatory behavior toward newbies and other players in general, but idfwt. Where spirit webs are concerned, I'd only seen one real instance of someone saying something that I found personally offensive which was them (A syssin) making 'I can't breathe' jokes while noosing/garroting people in the following weeks of George Floyd being murdered. It's hard to classify things like this as hate speech though without them seeming politically charged when the racism wasn't otherwise overt.

7. I've felt that (at least in the Shamans) they've been so wonderful and open to exploring the dark avenues that are available to the Guild. This isn't meant as a jab toward anyone but the Guild was dead for 7+ years until @Sibatti came around to facilitate the roleplay that she has and it's been WONDERFUL. While I understand the importance of GM/Admin driven stories/conflict, it's also important to understand that we as players can create these sorts of environments that people feel comfortable doing these things in a way that isn't harmful or toxic to others.

Honest question for the players who think they're missing out on or being prevented from roleplaying out darker themes. What is the actual 'this happened' moment that caused this thread? ( @Jhin @Drystin @Saidenn @Rhyot sorry if I missed anyone )

Can you provide an actual example where you wanted to pursue something that falls under this so-called "darker theme" and you were unable to do so? Or are we just talking some theoretical / nonexistent scenario? Where, exactly, have you been prevented from exploring your imagination to its potential? Where has someone stood in your way?

Or is the question more that there's some strange disconnect between what you feel is "valid" darker themed RP - i.e. it has to show up in a world event or a mechanic for it to have meaning? Because if that's the real question being asked, that's a framing problem.

Look at this another way. You are the one telling your character's story - not Aetolia. Not the so-called snowflake who won't do things your way.

What are you doing to further your character's story? Not "who's holding you back". What are YOU doing?

I got vented at on Discord for pursuing a valid thread of roleplay, completely in line with Elene's character. This individual has roleplayed with Elene before, and knows, or even has indulged in the darker interests of what she's done before. What I did was nowhere close to it. It was simply an act of cruelty and service, but it made said person upset, to the point that another person (connected to person A) started to yell at me in Discord DMs for following my character's personality, accusing of trying to make things unfun for the person A because it has made person A very OOCly unhappy and considering quitting the game. I was basically made to feel like I should be guilty for playing out how Elene is.

Does this count as an example?

It seems nowadays Aetolia has adopted a lot of real life politics into an RP fantasy game.

Personally I don't come to Aetolia to learn whats on Joe Bidens agenda or any other politician in the world.

Slaves are a sensitive subject in America, but slaves are real in Aetolia.

I'm focusing on these statements in Jhin's original post because tbh they're the only ones that really have any meat attached to them. So let's look at what is being discussed.

Jhin doesn't want real life politics in Aetolia. One of these "real life politics" that is undesirable is "Joe Bidens agenda". I wouldn't mind having more strict examples of exactly what Joe Biden's agenda is and how it is in Aetolia, but let's ignore that for now.

Slaves are a sensitive subject in America, but exist in Aetolia. Why are slaves a sensitive subject in America? Does it have anything to do with the history of slavery in America? The fact that the country was split apart and had a war over slavery? The fact that the history of slavery is still having real world implications on American politics today?

Really, Jhin's statement could have been this:

Slaves are a political subject in America, but slaves are real in Aetolia.

Slavery is an inherently political subject. The whole reason why it is a sensitive subject in America is because of it's political implications. Stating you don't want real life politics in your fantasy game and stating that it is ok to have slavery in your fantasy game is contradictory. You either do want real life politics in your fantasy game or you don't. If you want slavery in your fantasy game, then you want politics in your fantasy game.

So let's look at the politics that Jhin doesn't want in their fantasy game. Except let's change a specific portion of the statement to prove a point.

Personally I don't come to Aetolia to learn whats on Hitlers agenda or any other politician in the world.

Why should it be ok for you to come to the forums and claim that you dislike seeing Joe Biden's agenda in Aetolia, but then other people are being told they are blowing things out of proportion when they say they don't want to see Hitler's agenda in Bamathis' theme? Especially when there were quite a few posts showing how the militarism, nationalism, and us-vs-themism of Bamathis was similar to nazism/fascism, but we didn't really get any examples of Joe Biden's agenda in Aetolia besides the broad generalization that Aetolians are all snowflakes nowdays? The same reason why you don't want to see Joe Biden's agenda in Aetolia is the same reason why people didn't like Bamathis' theme. They don't want to see those real world political attributions in Aetolia.

And let's be honest with ourselves for a second here. The reason why people were able to point out Bamathis' fascistic themes was because they understood how fascism functions. People that don't have the same understanding couldn't comprehend the comparisons and likely even disagreed with it. If Jhin is seeing Joe Biden's agenda in Aetolia, then he has a deep understanding of whatever Joe Biden's agenda is, and that is why he is seeing it in Aetolia. I have no idea what Jhin thinks Joe Biden's agenda is, but if it's something like making people use preferred pronouns, then yeah I guess that is a part of Aetolia now, since people can change their genders in the game.

I would also like to take a step back and ask if we're supposed to be ok with slavery in the game, but not ok with Joe Biden's agenda in the game, then where else should we draw our arbitrary lines? Do you think it would be fun for Spireans to be forced to deal with a refugee crisis as a result of Bloodloch's imperial wars in the Festering Wastes and Mhojave Desert? Would a fun event for Enorian be dealing with a homelessness crisis because all the rich Enorianites have bought up all the property and leaving homes empty while the poor Enorianites can't afford rent and get evicted? Maybe Duiran should be dealing with a group of eco-terrorists using suicide ylem-bombers to blow up half the city because they believe the laissez-faire approach of eat or be eaten doesn't do enough to protect the wilds and Dendara?

For me, the real question being asked in this thread (or I guess two questions) is if Aetolians want real world politics in their game, and if Aetolians are mature enough to handle real world politics in their game.
The initial post directly states that it doesn't want politics in the game, but also contradicts itself by stating one political theme as unacceptable while another as acceptable. To me, that alone answers both questions.

Unfortunately, it doesn't really matter what we want or if we're able to handle it. And I suppose for some people it's nice to attempt to live an apolitical life, but I'm reminded of the phrase "You might not care about politics, but politics certainly cares about you". Politics and culture and philosophy is in everything we do and a part of our everyday lives, even if we don't want it to be. It's in pretty much all the video games you play and movies you watch, even if you don't recognize it. And in a mock reality driven by both player-created and admin-created storytelling, you can bet your ass your going to see politics in Aetolia. That includes Joe Biden's agenda and slavery.

For me then, the better question to ask ourselves is how much of those politics should be shoved into our face and played out by our characters, and how much of it should be some loose theme that exists in some corner of the game that doesn't really have much to do with anything? Some people have discussed Aetolia being a fantasy game and using our imaginations. So why are we hung up on real-world evils? Shouldn't we be embracing the fantasy aspects of Aetolia, instead of putting forth real-world evils as necessary parts or main portions of Aetolian storytelling? Why aren't more people complaining about how the evils in Aetolia should be about necromantic magic or evil god-like beings? This was the "joke" I kept telling myself in my head while reading this thread:

Chud malintented darkie rper: We should be ok with slavery in Aetolia.
Chad evil Shadow rper: I want to summon the Shadow Mother.

I would also like to mention that the irony of claiming to not want politics in Aetolia while calling Aetolians snowflakes (a politicized term), and then turning around and agreeing with a post that basically states there should be more safe spaces for PK, is absolutely not lost on me. Bravo, really.

So idk in conclusion I guess uh, politics will always exist in Aetolia because real people play the game and generate those politics. But instead of having them be main themes they should be shoved to the side, made mostly unimportant, or even mostly removed/ignored so we can pursue more fantasy based themes like Shadow Mommies.

And one final point to make since no one else has made it: Aetolia is a business. It exists to make money, or at least it exists because it makes money. If Aetolia makes the most money by having Joe Biden's agenda in the game or placating to all the snowflakes by making more safe spaces for PKers, then that is what Aetolia will do to keep making the most money. If you don't like that Aetolia has made that turn then you don't really have much to blame except capitalism. I mean, you can call it "woke capitalism" if you want, but that doesn't actually exist it's literally just capitalism it's companies making money by any means necessary including pretending to care about what customers think so they can keep making money. You can blame 'culture' or 'snowflakes' all you want, but like most things, you've always gotta follow the money.

To answer your question from my perspective, @Sibatti, I definitely experienced some, frankly, discouraging stuff when it came to roleplaying...I guess "dark" is a word for it. After I came back a year ago and started trying to roleplay being a, like, dark, menacing, kinda violent vampire, it was met with a lot of negativity, both IC and OOC. The IC I could handle (although it still remains a mystery to me how Bloodloch, the Volcano Lair Mordor of Aetolia, is averse to that sort of thing), it was the OOC stuff that really got under my skin. Without trying to vent too hard about this (probably wouldn't even be in this thread if Fezzix's statements about me hadn't been brought up and immediately filtered back to me), there's, at least in Shadow, from my perspective, a separation/partition problem, and quite a lot of self-insert characters. Self-inserting is a great way to be able to RP (after all, being just your normal self is easy, just add in some 'aye's and give yourself the tail you always wanted), I do think it makes things that happen to your character feel a little bit too personal, so that's something you have to actively correct for if that's your RP style.

Things, for me, came to a head when I found out there was a concerted, OOC effort by a (small) handful of people to make my online playtime about as miserable as possible. And, as much as I don't like to admit it, it definitely worked. It's not the only reason I took the exit ramp from Aetolia, but it most definitely made me put my foot harder on the gas.

Kinda like Xarian's meme, there's definitely been some sketch RP out there; people laundering bullying and harassment through "RP," as well as people finding ways to insert their own bigotry into the game through a carefully calibrated filter. That was a thing way back when, and I'm glad that the community seems to be at least somewhat aware of that now. But I would be remiss to see this thread continue on without it being brought up that we've totally overcorrected on this, and it seems to me that any sort of controversial RP, no matter how organic and well-motivated, is (at least in the Shadow tether) met with an extraordinarily amount of IC and OOC pushback that makes it catagorically unfun to play that sort of character.

Okay I'm really logging off now. Have fun, kids!
edit: jk lol why do i never proofread