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Re: Events post #242: An interlude for Chaos
So. Going to inject my opinion based on my own experiences with the game and with events in the past and more recently.
What the Indorani did and the repercussions of their actions definitely made for a good story. If there was any way for a guild to end, that was an epic way to do it.
That being said...
What was done by the Indorani comes with a few problems on several levels, both IC and OOC.
On an IC level, the way the current event is going, it's an 'everyone bands together to fight a greater, potentially world-ending threat' type of scenario. Calling down Golgotha completely undermined that by weakening the gods who already stand a slim chance of beating Jox when the last seal breaks. Essentially, an entire org stabbed the entire game world in the back by putting the gods at risk. Congratulations, you're the bad guy. How do you expect anyone ICly to want to depend on your org when they've pretty much flipped off the rest of the world?
On an OOC level, an entire org deciding to do what pretty much looks like turning on everyone else is, uh...kind of a problem? There's an implication that the org isn't playing the same game as everyone else. Each org has a role to fill, a line to toe, and when you're the leader of an org, you can do as you like while still filling that role, but you need to have the awareness that you don't have carte blanche to do whatever you want. It becomes your responsibility to steer things where they ought to be, and you need to be aware of that. Yes, you're still playing your character, but as an org leader, you have to balance that in addition to the OOC recognition that you're going to have to make concessions and do things you/your character may not like because it helps the org fit into its role better, or better gels with the larger narrative going on.
The way it looks to me is that the Indorani latched onto the Chaos hook and pursued it hard despite being dropped hints that doing so wasn't likely to lead to anything good. Jox is the focus. Bringing in the Chaos Lords is probably a bad idea - why split everyone's attention? There were probably other hooks offered, but the guild kept yanking on that one. Probably the fact that no one except one person, judging by the honors lines, thought that calling in the Chaos Lords was a bad idea was one of the things that led to the guild's dissolution.
Edit: Starting conflict is one thing, but the Golgotha incident was more of a derail than anything. As I pointed out earlier in my post, the current scenario is: there's a rangerous entity sealed away, everyone needs to band together and help the gods in order to stand a chance of defeating it. Of the, what, six or seven seals, ONE is a Chaos seal, a detail that might be tangential at best. I say tangential because all the other seals had gods associated with them too, but huge deals weren't made out of them. And yet a big deal was made out of the Chaos seal.
What the Indorani did and the repercussions of their actions definitely made for a good story. If there was any way for a guild to end, that was an epic way to do it.
That being said...
What was done by the Indorani comes with a few problems on several levels, both IC and OOC.
On an IC level, the way the current event is going, it's an 'everyone bands together to fight a greater, potentially world-ending threat' type of scenario. Calling down Golgotha completely undermined that by weakening the gods who already stand a slim chance of beating Jox when the last seal breaks. Essentially, an entire org stabbed the entire game world in the back by putting the gods at risk. Congratulations, you're the bad guy. How do you expect anyone ICly to want to depend on your org when they've pretty much flipped off the rest of the world?
On an OOC level, an entire org deciding to do what pretty much looks like turning on everyone else is, uh...kind of a problem? There's an implication that the org isn't playing the same game as everyone else. Each org has a role to fill, a line to toe, and when you're the leader of an org, you can do as you like while still filling that role, but you need to have the awareness that you don't have carte blanche to do whatever you want. It becomes your responsibility to steer things where they ought to be, and you need to be aware of that. Yes, you're still playing your character, but as an org leader, you have to balance that in addition to the OOC recognition that you're going to have to make concessions and do things you/your character may not like because it helps the org fit into its role better, or better gels with the larger narrative going on.
The way it looks to me is that the Indorani latched onto the Chaos hook and pursued it hard despite being dropped hints that doing so wasn't likely to lead to anything good. Jox is the focus. Bringing in the Chaos Lords is probably a bad idea - why split everyone's attention? There were probably other hooks offered, but the guild kept yanking on that one. Probably the fact that no one except one person, judging by the honors lines, thought that calling in the Chaos Lords was a bad idea was one of the things that led to the guild's dissolution.
Edit: Starting conflict is one thing, but the Golgotha incident was more of a derail than anything. As I pointed out earlier in my post, the current scenario is: there's a rangerous entity sealed away, everyone needs to band together and help the gods in order to stand a chance of defeating it. Of the, what, six or seven seals, ONE is a Chaos seal, a detail that might be tangential at best. I say tangential because all the other seals had gods associated with them too, but huge deals weren't made out of them. And yet a big deal was made out of the Chaos seal.
Re: Events post #242: An interlude for Chaos
So, I've heard the comment of 'oh, they were generating conflict' a few times now. Yes, what the Indorani did generated conflict, but in the greater scope of things? It's not necessarily the good kind. During an event where the gods and every other org in the rest of the game are trying to help the Sapience gods, you have one org that essentially went 'screw all y'all'. What's happened since has been pretty much a reaping of consequences - another thing people have complained about the game not having. I don't feel like there's been any railroading - people are doing what feels logical in respect to the current story. And what's happened is a logical progression of the consequences of such a huge decision. You supported summoning the Chaos Lords after being warned by one of the more powerful gods? Of course every other org that has been fighting to save their gods are going to have reason to mistrust you, and of course the gods themselves are going to have reason to dislike you IC. That's just...kind of how it goes. And with the way the game is currently set up, making an org at odds with everyone else isn't exactly smart or healthy, and kind of reminds me of Kinsarmar over in Imperian. I don't know a ton about the Indorani, but choosing to not get the Chaos Lords involved would still have been a valid choice that'd still make lore sense (ex. 'oh, we'd better help protect the world in this instance or else there won't be a world to inflict despair on'). From a writing standpoint, if you're going to be a villain, you want to be a sustainable one - conquer, destroy, but leave enough that you can still exert your influence.
When it comes to large scale events in Aetolia, I feel like it has to be approached as players like you're players in a D&D game, and the admins and Celani running the event are your DMs, and the event itself is a plot arc. The event runners will have a general idea of the end goal of what the plot arc is, and leave hooks to latch onto. The gods and NPCs nudging players in certain directions are like a DM doing the same to keep players going in a certain direction to keep the story moving. It's railroading, yes, but it's a necessary kind of railroading. You want to be able to do whatever you want? Well, you can; there's just going to be consequences. I can say from my own personal experiences with Duiran and the amount of nudging it's had to have from its gods that if it hadn't been done, Duiran probably wouldn't have gotten involved in the Liruma War ("It doesn't directly threaten us or Dendara, it's not our problem") or the Gray Accords ("Why would we cooperate with Shadow? They'll just stab us in the back, so let's go it alone") for reasons that were perfectly valid IC. But decisions were made to 'play ball' because as I've mentioned before, when you run an org, you do have to balance RP with what the story is currently demanding.
When it comes to large scale events in Aetolia, I feel like it has to be approached as players like you're players in a D&D game, and the admins and Celani running the event are your DMs, and the event itself is a plot arc. The event runners will have a general idea of the end goal of what the plot arc is, and leave hooks to latch onto. The gods and NPCs nudging players in certain directions are like a DM doing the same to keep players going in a certain direction to keep the story moving. It's railroading, yes, but it's a necessary kind of railroading. You want to be able to do whatever you want? Well, you can; there's just going to be consequences. I can say from my own personal experiences with Duiran and the amount of nudging it's had to have from its gods that if it hadn't been done, Duiran probably wouldn't have gotten involved in the Liruma War ("It doesn't directly threaten us or Dendara, it's not our problem") or the Gray Accords ("Why would we cooperate with Shadow? They'll just stab us in the back, so let's go it alone") for reasons that were perfectly valid IC. But decisions were made to 'play ball' because as I've mentioned before, when you run an org, you do have to balance RP with what the story is currently demanding.
Re: Events post #242: An interlude for Chaos
I support @Oonagh (whose name makes me want to chant it over and over), on the idea of making a cult clan. I mean, Bouchard was deleted for like.. years and eventually reformed because of the determination of a few people (though primarily Neoma, I think).i'm just gonna say it: Onnagh-a Oonagh-a is the most valuable comment in this thread, and so i hereby close it to comments
It happens. I won't really bother commenting on whether it was deserved or earned or horrible or what have you. All I see is that the Indorani can now infiltrate other guilds and attempt to influence them from the inside while being part of a hidden clan cult or something dedicated to the spread of Chaos... or something.
Alternatively, you could just start chanting "Oonagh-a Oonagh-a" like I am.
Vyxsis
2
Re: Events post #242: An interlude for Chaos
I think it's pertinent to point out, for everyone at home, that outside of Vyxsis and Tina, no one else has been booted from their respective cities. A handful of non-novice players copped enemy statuses and fines from Spines (and maybe Eno/Duiran?), but they ultimately mean nothing as they won't interfere in anyone's play time.
Are Indorani players going to be ostracized at some level and potentially find themselves in difficult positions? Absolutely, but they had to have known the consequences of supporting such an action. Regardless, they are not in an unwinnable situation, there are plenty of orgs in the game, and they have RP routes open to them for either redemption or doubling down on their cult. Relatively speaking, everyone is getting off almost scot-free.
Are Indorani players going to be ostracized at some level and potentially find themselves in difficult positions? Absolutely, but they had to have known the consequences of supporting such an action. Regardless, they are not in an unwinnable situation, there are plenty of orgs in the game, and they have RP routes open to them for either redemption or doubling down on their cult. Relatively speaking, everyone is getting off almost scot-free.
Iazamat
3
Re: Events post #242: An interlude for Chaos
I'd like to bring up something that nobody else has pointed out yet. I'm pretty sure @Vyxsis 's main issue here is that she thinks the admins made the wrong decision in how they set up the story, but there's something wrong with this argument.
You use the example that "The Chaos Lords imprisoned at the seals could have been rogues that Golgotha handed over." When a storyteller sets up a situation in which a player character finds him or herself in a dilemma and the player (or in this case group of players) makes a decision, a response like the one you list above is a perfect example of lazy storytelling. If something like that had happened, it would have done nothing more than proved to the player base that their decisions truly do not matter and the show will go on its intended path no matter what.
As for the dilemma itself, that's a wonderful opportunity for character and organization development. The Indorani were caught between loyalty to the Pantheon and loyalty to the Court. With the stakes as high as they were and the Pantheon warning of dire consequences, there could have been any number of ways to respond to the situation that wouldn't have been lazy like the admins shifting things around after the fact.
I could also argue that the fact such a dilemma exists at all brings credibility to @Razmael 's argument that the Indorani don't make sense as a player run organization. An org whose mission statement antagonizes the entire world isn't something that attracts allies, it's more of a "big bad" like the Dreikathi or Nazedha.
You use the example that "The Chaos Lords imprisoned at the seals could have been rogues that Golgotha handed over." When a storyteller sets up a situation in which a player character finds him or herself in a dilemma and the player (or in this case group of players) makes a decision, a response like the one you list above is a perfect example of lazy storytelling. If something like that had happened, it would have done nothing more than proved to the player base that their decisions truly do not matter and the show will go on its intended path no matter what.
As for the dilemma itself, that's a wonderful opportunity for character and organization development. The Indorani were caught between loyalty to the Pantheon and loyalty to the Court. With the stakes as high as they were and the Pantheon warning of dire consequences, there could have been any number of ways to respond to the situation that wouldn't have been lazy like the admins shifting things around after the fact.
I could also argue that the fact such a dilemma exists at all brings credibility to @Razmael 's argument that the Indorani don't make sense as a player run organization. An org whose mission statement antagonizes the entire world isn't something that attracts allies, it's more of a "big bad" like the Dreikathi or Nazedha.
Fezzix
7
Re: Events post #242: An interlude for Chaos
I’m nearly ready to stop following his thread, though I imagine I have as much self-control as you seem to in responding. Over and over again we see comments like, “You just don’t understand” or “You don’t know the details, but I know the details, but don’t ask for details” from yourself and another. It’s fairly ridiculous. It’s relatively clear that not a single one of us is ‘going to understand’ unless we lament your loss alongside you and carry forth this banner of nazi-admin-BS you seem hellbent on waving.
ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES, GOOD OR BAD. Trager has lost citizenship, guild membership, allies and deities based off of decisions he made in-game. (@Jensen and his damn catapult fetish) This is no different, Vyxsis just had a God there to enforce the consequences. THE CONSEQUENCES THAT WERE CLEARLY AND CONCISELY IMPARTED.
Edit: Target to Trager. Damn phone. Also, if peeling back all the veiled BS and laying it out is abuse, I’m the most abusive MF you’ll ever see.
ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES, GOOD OR BAD. Trager has lost citizenship, guild membership, allies and deities based off of decisions he made in-game. (@Jensen and his damn catapult fetish) This is no different, Vyxsis just had a God there to enforce the consequences. THE CONSEQUENCES THAT WERE CLEARLY AND CONCISELY IMPARTED.
Edit: Target to Trager. Damn phone. Also, if peeling back all the veiled BS and laying it out is abuse, I’m the most abusive MF you’ll ever see.
Trager
9
Re: Events post #242: An interlude for Chaos
thanks, emir and silena. i knew i wasn't nuts about that.@Kanivara @AlathesiaMy two cents: You're correct that it doesn't matter who plays what God. But if something is said, IC, you shouldn't base your character's reactions on OOC assumptions- IE, 'does Severn have the admin authority to do this' or 'will Kyna respond to messages?' None of that should matter to your characters as it isn't ever information available to them. I would assume, IC, that if a God says something, they're willing to back it up if they have to.
Vyxsis is 100% correct in believing that God decision != Admin decision. Gods != Admin.
Severn is an IC entity and it does not matter if Joe Celani or Razmael or Tiur is behind the wheel, anything said or done is considered IC and not an admin decision. If an administrative decision needed to be made they would do it as their administrator shell (being Tiur, Razmael, Keroc, etc)
There was even a post about this unicorns guys, come on. And during the war I know everyone talked about events and our meeting after it started that reinforced the God != Admin that it should be well known just due to word of mouth and how gossipy Aetolia is.
as for the rest... i mean, sure, it's ICly reasonable to believe gods can follow through on threats. it's also ICly reasonable to think the Court of Chaos might actually win, given the situation, but OOCly it would've been super dumb to think that was a serious possibility. furthermore, severn's threat to "obliterate" us could've looked like a lot of things, practically speaking. it doesn't necessarily mean "you're actually completely seriously going to get deleted with no options to reform" - which is, frankly, an OOC convention. ICly, unless he actually destroyed all the people involved, it doesn't make a lick of sense to say "haha, i nuked your guild hall, now you don't exist!" as long as the people - and the guild is the people - are still around, there's nothing to stop them reforming except an imposed, OOC constraint (i.e. the org mechanic).
the bit about OOC assumptions... idek what to say. Chak's interaction with Vyxsis yesterday was so full of "i know you know who i am and that i also play Tanix" overtones that people who didn't know commented on how weird the argument about messaging and bloviating about how Tanix was betrayed were. at the end of the day, while i don't base IC actions on OOC assumptions, those OOC assumptions absolutely will impact the range of IC actions i'll consider taking. i'm not gonna blatantly break PK rules, which are largely OOC, and get shrubbed because i think it makes IC sense. i'm also not gonna do something i see as a complete waste of time and energy, like... messaging an absent god.
Vyxsis
0
Re: Events post #242: An interlude for Chaos
i've gotta try to have some discipline and not reply further to this thread. the degree of willful misrepresentation, lack of attention to what's actually been said, and, in at least one case, outright lies is making me crazy. good luck, y'all.
Vyxsis
0
Re: Events post #242: An interlude for Chaos
@Vyxsis I am not sure why you would not take the word of a Divine as word of admin... that puzzles me.
When the Carnifex had to change direction I was approach before hand and told what was needed to know and an outline of what will happen. If this was a situation that was going to push the Indorani in a different direction you would have been approached. If this was a situation that the admin wanted the Indorani specifically involved with you would have been approached. The fact you were not approached and blindly went into this with your actions means the Indorani were -not- supposed to be in the spot light. I have been approached by admin and Divine both about the Carnifex and change or directions they wanted me to take them.
"With great power comes great responsibilities."
When the Carnifex had to change direction I was approach before hand and told what was needed to know and an outline of what will happen. If this was a situation that was going to push the Indorani in a different direction you would have been approached. If this was a situation that the admin wanted the Indorani specifically involved with you would have been approached. The fact you were not approached and blindly went into this with your actions means the Indorani were -not- supposed to be in the spot light. I have been approached by admin and Divine both about the Carnifex and change or directions they wanted me to take them.
"With great power comes great responsibilities."
