Best Of

I think the video game analysis is pretty helpful when it comes to looking at these events, though it's probably overall safer to look at long-running MMOs. I know Spirit's definitely had their hand forced on events before in antiquity, so it really doesn't surprise me that there's a chip on the shoulder about wanting an uncomplicated win. I think, though, if we look at Aet as a long-spanning story, it makes sense for events of some kind to have consequences way further on in another story entirely. Kinda like how sometimes you "win" a video game by beating it, but the villain or the villain's cousin or something shows up in the sequel. It doesn't feel like a "twist" to me or a "gotcha," but just another way of continuing an arc that people already understand the moving pieces for and are invested in. Like, if this event had ended with a twirling mustached Severn rising from the ground being like "ahah, you actually did MY plan all along," that would have been bad and obnoxious. But if punching the Earth Daddy so hard that he crashes into Azvosh for a timeout had some consequences for the Pillars that we had to deal with, I don't think that should diminish the win. I don't necessarily think that's what should happen, I'm just using it as an example. Spirit still trounced Shadow and effectively deleted a massive haven for undead research and development. They bonked Ivo so hard that he had to go in timeout. That's pretty awesome.

Again, I don't think that something with the pillars or whatnot needs or should or ought to happen at all. I just think there's a difference between some action having a counteraction at a later moment from a clearly broadcasted and understandable causality and, like, just pulling the rug out from under people and saying "actually you lose."

Edit: I used the word "think" six (seven now) times in this post. I counted. Real garbage stuff.

Hard disagree. I actually LOVE the idea of the "good guys" committing atrocities in the name of the light. That's actually really rad.

Aetolia is not meant to be "Good vs Evil", we are "Spirit vs Shadow."
Are there people who lean towards Good in the Spirit tether? Sure. But there are more than a few characters in Spinesreach who would, too.

Not all Spirit characters are intrinsically good, just as not all Shadow characters are intrinsically evil.

Example: Sibatti leans more towards evil than good, if you were to stack up her morals and compare them side by side. She hates undeath but thinks Sciomancers aren't fundamentally a bad idea. She hates slavery but probably wouldn't think twice about killing an innocent. To her, the "Good" parts are what benefit Duiran/Dendara, and a little bit herself.

Okay, I agree here too! I think you misread what I meant, which is that if 'good' characters are committing atrocities, then they don't deserve a clean protagonist win any more than Shadow does. Every character needs to face the consequences of what they do, and there is /no/ one in this game, org-wise, who is just free-and-clear morally correct from an objective standpoint. I love evil Spirit and good Shadow chars too!

What I'm talking about is the attitude I see from many others in which Spirit IS equated with 'Good'. And sometimes even with 'christian', which is a whole other bag of snakes.

One last thing, and maybe it's me reading into things or taking some things too personally, but I really hope that it isn't intended for some of this to read like unhappiness that in the narrative right now Bloodloch is not living up to some of the things it claims (in general). This wouldn't be the first time it's happened to that city, or to any of our cities, and I'm sure it won't be the last. Ultimately, I'm not convinced that the tether system is 100% the cause of all of this..

And I not sure what your implying? I lurk in Shadow web for the majority of the day and there has not been bad attitudes about this event or the PK portion. Your post reads to me: "I really hope you guys didn't post this cuz you got your asses kicked, cuz everyone has gotten their asses kicked." Shadow has pretty much accepted that it did not have numbers willing to commit to have a shot. But everyone has been good natured about it. Forcing people to PK or participate in PK just breeds resentment. Shadow has been really good about not pressuring people to pk that do not want too.

It might be hard to accept, but I for one would feel this way if the tables were turned and Shadow had the numbers. I have never found one sided battles very compelling from either side. In Achaea I would frequently dip out of battles where we outnumbered the opposing side 2-3:1. The huge number disparity will always be a problem with the pendulum swing of the Tether system. In my experience when it is broken down to cities you have a better chance of aiming for an even battle.

Hard disagree. I actually LOVE the idea of the "good guys" committing atrocities in the name of the light. That's actually really rad.

[...]

Example: Sibatti leans more towards evil than good, if you were to stack up her morals and compare them side by side. She hates undeath but thinks Sciomancers aren't fundamentally a bad idea. She hates slavery but probably wouldn't think twice about killing an innocent. To her, the "Good" parts are what benefit Duiran/Dendara, and a little bit herself.

As support for this: I do not play a Good Guy either. Iesid is objectively a monster. He's fine with slaughtering people, he doesn't care about forgiveness, he near fetishizes violence, and one of his most abhorrent/maverick takes as a Spirit character is that most undead do not deserve to be cured and should be utterly destroyed instead. I've said before that he's exclusively written to be a bastard, which makes the glimpses underneath the initial layers very special and interesting for characters very close to him.

Spirit is not Good. Shadow is not Evil. Good vs. Evil is a boring, played out conflict imo.

As someone who I'm almost certain is being talked about when @Lenoriel mentions hearing Spirit friends complain about Spirit not getting a clean win, it's exactly as @Sryaen says. It's not at all that I don't want complex storytelling or that I don't want to play a character contemplating the weight of their choices. In fact, anyone who has ever rp'd with Rasani knows that's sort of my whole shtick, is rping that shit out.

The reality, though, is this isn't just a book where you can keep dragging along these characters to keep fighting because you and you alone control their destiny. This is a game. Like any game, video games, tabletop, any of it, sometimes a win should be a win and, in the time I've played, we have gotten very few true wins. Hell, part of the story right now, a major part that I'm enjoying roleplaying, is that Spirit has had the rug pulled out from under them and they are faced with literal atrocities they've committed because they believed Varian when he said All Albedi Are Bastards. If every win Spirit gets comes with this "hehe you won but also fuck you", then the players in turn will go "why bother" because they aren't just pieces to be moved around in a dollhouse, they're people.

All this to say: none of my complaints about this issue are with malice toward shadow players. Hell, I have quite a few people in shadow I consider very cool people, if not outright friends. It was frustration at, and I'll say it, lazy storytelling. Having a twist at the end of every event doesn't make it more interesting or complex. There's a reason the Shyamalan twist is an outright joke: when it's overused, it becomes cliche.

And since this is a tether conversation and I don't wanna be too off topic: A lot would have to change before tethers could go away. Yes, it would be awesome to allow more grey and complicated rp. And while I've been very open in the past, here and elsewhere, that my experience joining the game ages ago and trying shadow was less than welcoming, it's clear the community of aetolia and the culture has changed, which is fantastic! I'd LOVE to see a system where the players are less polarized, but an us vs them is a quick and easy story generator.

I don't have a solution, at least not one that I think would be adopted. But I DO think it's important, as always, to remember that people are behind the characters. If you're treating someone bad because they're playing someone your character might not like, that's shitty. This is supposed to be fun for all of us, and if you're having something that's frustrating you, just talk to the other player. Like, I know people might go "my immersion" but I promise you it really does make you a lot kinder to make sure the air is clear because, honestly, I feel like a lot of the animosity in our community is people assuming malicious intent from people who don't have it. Like, I promise that Carnifex doesn't hate you personally and I'm sure that Sentinel is just really in character.