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Comments
The Ascendril really aren't that strict when it comes to association. We have no standing association laws. At the same time, it is perfectly fair for us to get irritable when we see our members hanging around Spireans and Bloodlochians, especially those that have the sciomancer class or are enemies of the guild (that's a blanket statement, I know that none of the people involved, at least that I know about, are enemied).
tl;dr, it's one thing to have respect for the people that oppose you and your orgs, one thing to work with them on occasion. But it's another thing to foster close relationships.
Edit: I know there has been a lot of pressure on Ciarelle from sources in Enorian to cut off Sess' interactions with spireans. And it's really not fair to behave like she's the world's biggest jerk for suggesting that someone start to look closer to home for some rp rather than go to people on the other side for everything, especially when she's getting crap for being, quote unquote, too lax about cross-side interactions.
Honestly, I think Ciarelle sounds like she went it the right way. Place standards but not remove that contact. 'You're a part of a guild, act it... just.. play it safe, we have our eye on you'.
I honestly feel that, at this point, this thread is turning into a bag-on-the-ascendril thread that is getting based on half-information and over reactions.
No one is getting kicked out of the guild.
No one is getting punished.
The ascendril generally turn a blind eye to most interactions within reason.
No one is trying to dictate what a character can and cannot do.
Unless Enorian is giving her crap for her associations, which I doubt based on what Ciarelle has said to me, this is the first time it's come up. And really, this is the first time that I can think of that this has ever become an issue in the Ascendril, aside from some crap with Calipso, but we hardly did anything to her when she was bashing with Alexina, aside from saying 'hey, you might want to be careful there'.
I think these threads are getting crossed in odd ways.
There are few people who play truly “evil” characters.
Enorian is set up to treat the undead/necromancers as evil. We debate “is it the skill, or the person” and endlessly come back to “it’s the skill”.
Yet, in real life, we’re taught that oppression and discrimination, purges, and idealistic purity, are generally the tools of the bad guys (e.g. the Nazis).
So, we end up with a city that is positioned as the “good” city, where people go if they want to be Priests (looking at you, Luminaries. Sorry) or Paladins or Monks, as the one doing the discriminating.
This discrimination is generally maintained as the status quo, via players, and sometimes admin, so that we don’t end up with necromancers or vampires in the “good” cities in the name of understanding and peace (Yeah, guilty as charged. Macian used to be an Indorani Benandanti). Realistically, it's the only IC thing holding the city to that stance - Enorian is always forced to fall back on things like "the gods said so" to defend anti undead stances. Again, primarily because the evil people in the game aren't evil, and the non-player evidence that says they are is largely glossed over based on player interactions.
On the other side, we have the vampires and undead, which I claim people don’t really play as “evil”, being “evil-light”, where their RP stance against Enorian is often “You’re bigots, you should be more accepting”. They’re not out pillaging and raping (for the most part) or conducting necromantic experiments (even though vivisect is pretty sick if you think about the message) or draining people dry and loving it. I don't mean that in a judgemental way, it's simply not something that most people want to RP, because as real people we're not like that.
Enorian’s basic concept (and, to a lesser extend, the way in which we all interact in Aetolia) is tragically flawed, because in order to play the “good” side, you have to do what you, as a person, consider to be bad things. And, while this can make for interesting RP at times, it’s not something that everyone wants to do consistently.
Evil-light isn’t going to go away, because no one wants to be “stomping on babies” evil (Yeah, that imagery makes me cringe too – that’s my point), so that's not the solution.
Enorian needs stronger RP to back up why Shadow/Undeath is evil, because 90% of the time, when someone challenges you ICly as to why you hate undeath, you end up floundering like a fish out of water looking for reasons.
Enorian also hasn’t been given as much support by gods/admin/events (again, due to the purity RP) that would work as an out for them to ease up on the discrimination and purity side of things and shift, as an organization, to other options. There are no game mechanics beyond convincing someone to switch sides and get the cure (which, let’s face it, is almost always a completely OOC decision). Until those two things happen, Enorian is going to continue to burn people out.
(Duiran could use a bit of help too. I’d love to see some kind of solution that kills the “Is it skills or is it the person” debate once and for all)
I suppose the reason Sess' situation is upsetting to her- and correct me if I'm wrong of course, but this is how I'd feel- is that sometimes people have a certain way they want their character to be, and when RP stacks up to force either sub-optimal mechanics adjustments (ragequit, enemy status, losing lessons, etc), or angry/uncomfortable/tense IC results, it can be a bit of a buzz kill. I get that it's completely IC for that to be Just The Way It Is, and that one can't get legitimately mad at the people who are being straight and doing what RP tells them to do, but it's still a bummer on a personal level. Drama and stuff is character building and can be exciting, but sometimes you just want your pretendy funtime game to be quiet and pleasant. (Disclaimer: Yes I know that's at times unreasonable to ask because of all the other RP that would be bent to support it. Doesn't make wistful what-ifs any less of a thing.)
Also I guess you got a point there, Atra (though I do wonder just how badly the Ascendril and Cabalist ideals clash- aren't the Ascendril supposed to be scholars?). The rest of what I'm saying still stands though!
I think you're touching on one of the biggest issues here - no one realistically expects that Eleanor's going to be converted. Suspension of disbelief and support of an idea can only go so far. I'd love to see some sort of consistent mechanic that at least gives us other examples of NPCs, who are considered part of a guild/org, being cured or converted so that someone can at least make a reasonable argument that it's possible, instead of people just rolling their eyes at the idea.
I do get what you're saying, and I there is an element of the Hail Mary kind of mindset in lighters: I even made a Luminary task to picket Spinesreach and Bloodloch with "The end is nigh" signs (No one took me up on it). I just find it really hard to get into something that I know is an impossible goal on a RL level, so personally I don't see it as sustainable long-term RP.
- There are plenty of extremely well thought out reasons presented in a number of areas about why Enorians should be against the undead hordes. If you aren't aware of them, look harder. I've only been in Enorian a week and I could point out several without really even looking for them.
- Lots of people enjoy playing 'stomping on babies' evil characters. One of my old characters used to steal babies, turn them into crazy Frankenstein-esque creations, and stuff them with bombs. That's sort of why some of us play these games, because we can do ridiculous things in a fantasy setting.
- Divine support has absolutely nothing to do with this current discussion.
@Macian there is plenty reason not to like the other side that's fully and strongly supported by lore in Enorian's case. The problem, however, comes from the fact that quite a few players on both sides either, intentionally or otherwise, ignore their roles entirely OR don't convey their roles convincingly/properly as separate from the established standard.
This happens for a number of reasons. Maybe they don't fully understand the lore. Maybe they aren't particularly interested in the role-playing aspects of Aetolia and thus are casual powergamers. Maybe they just don't know how. Maybe they just don't care. Maybe they just don't realize that their actions contradict what they're saying but that might tie into the first one of them not understanding the lore. The list goes on and on.
[spoiler]
Enorian's organizations try to stand against: Artifice, Corruption/Shadow, Undeath, and Wickedness.
Artifice and Wickedness go hand-in-hand in why they're viewed as "bad" and "evil". It's because hurting others or tricking others on a nefarious level are the seeds/tools used to foster environments of Corruption and Shadow.
Corruption/Shadow is bad/evil and should be avoided because it's a neon sign for the temptations of Undeath and Necromancy.
Undeath was bad/evil because your existence literally started to corrode the world. It used to be that being a Necromancer and or undead (worse if you're both) actually gave room messages that you're withering life around you and gradually killed plant growth mechanically in the room you stood in. This approach has since been retconned I think and it's now more of an unseen threat. Something changes in the background in the fabric of our world that we are not yet aware of. It's a big secret being kept tightly guarded by Severn. Arion knew what was up but I guess Severn made everyone forget somehow? So now it's just this nagging feeling that Severn is up to something super super bad. Not exactly sure here though. This is where a lot of the lore gets foggy due to retcons and unfinished plots and stuff. Anyway, the premise is the fear of the unknown.
Lighters: Yo man. That's bad mojo. Let's not do that stuff.
Darkies: Pfft. You're paranoid or think of all da power! or I just don't give a unicorn ain't hurting me now or You got it wrong mang, something glorious is gonna happen at the end. Xgod promised. Etc.
Duiran's organizations, from what I understand or what's been conveyed, try to stand against: Undeath and maybe...maybe Shadow. They're not so much concerned with Wickedness or Artifice on a brass level because the Wilds are harsh and you do what you gotta do to survive. Anything is fair game so long as you're not threatening the natural Cycle.
Bloodloch's organizations try to stand against: Weakness. That's ultimately what it boils down to. Undeath is seen as an enhancement of self and a progression to something better as they were taught by Ivoln or whatever but somehow ties back to Severn and His secret or something.
Spinesreach's organizations, from what I understand or what's been conveyed, try to stand against: all threats to the Motherland and at one point Severn. This was his main base of operations but I dunno anymore.
[/spoiler]
Yeaaah... I'm not too sure about hunting with the enemy. While I don't consider the act in of itself intimate in anyway, what Darkies are allowed to hunt in clear conscience for their established roles are in no way near as constricting as what Lighters are allowed. So I probably would've been like "Yo, make sure you ain't letting him nuke <ideally good areas> during your discussion." were I playing a character that cared for that sort of thing.
I believe that association laws are, for the most part, a ridiculous policy undertaken in both an IC and OOC setting. No offense truly meant to anyone when I say this but it's the extreme and ultimately futile tool of the lazy if only for the fact that if someone's motivated enough, they'll do what they want anyway.
Don't get me wrong. That's not to say that there shouldn't be consequences to anyone's actions. Quite the contrary. BUT. Punishments, official or otherwise, should fit the crime. It shouldn't be about who you are with so much as what it is you're actually doing with them and is the action actually harmful to the organization, its ideals or its reputation.
In that same vein, the player that decides to play outside their organization's established norm with the enemy should be fully prepared to deal with the consequences that might come their way and or fight for their stance or at the very least present their case. If you don't want to deal with consequences or the possible headaches as a player, don't put yourself in that position. This is another reason why I feel like guilds should lose their function as class dispensers (give that to NPCs or quests or remove the guild requirement for apprenticeship all together) and center them solely around ideals and goals.