Group Tactics/Skills - What's too much?

Haven

This discussion was created from comments split from: Owned Part II.

Macian

Moirean said:

Dhagon, Jayke, and Stathan enter from the west following Dato.

They are followed by a donkey and a roan brumby stallion.

He slams into you, knocking you off your feet and stunning you!

Health Lost: 1452, blunt.

You are afflicted with stun.

Dato launches a powerful uppercut at you.

Your head has taken 3.99% damage.

He connects to the head!

Health Lost: 432, blunt.

Dato launches a powerful uppercut at you.

Your head has taken 3.99% damage.

He connects to the head!

Health Lost: 432, blunt.

H:4724/7040 M:5720/5720 E:100% W:100 S:100% XP:12.73%% [cspdb e- lr] 

[Citadel]: parry left leg with left

[Citadel]: parry right leg with left

Driven by the scent of fresh blood, the leech leaps and attaches itself to Dato.

Your soulmaster lets loose a horrible scream as it lets part of its being flow into Dato.

H:4724/7040 M:5720/5720 E:100% W:100 S:100% XP:12.73%% [cspdb e- lr] 

You are too stunned to be able to do anything.

H:4724/7040 M:5720/5720 E:100% W:100 S:100% XP:12.73%% [cspdb e- lr] 

Dhagon's aura of weapons rebounding disappears.

Dhagon moves in towards you in a grabbing posture.

Dhagon lifts you triumphantly into the air, then yanks you down into his raised knee with back breaking force.

Health Lost: 2558, blunt.

H:2166/7040 M:5720/5720 E:100% W:100 S:100% XP:12.73%% [cspdb e- lr] 

You are too stunned to be able to do anything.

H:2166/7040 M:5720/5720 E:100% W:100 S:100% XP:12.73%% [cspdb e- lr] 

Stathan's aura of weapons rebounding disappears.

Stathan moves in towards you in a grabbing posture.

Stathan lifts you triumphantly into the air, then yanks you down into his raised knee with back breaking force.

Health Lost: 2686, blunt.

With a sickening crunch, a bolt of pure agony erupts from your back.  Your head lolls to one side and you lose all the feeling in your legs.  As you crumple to the ground you realise that the throw did, indeed, snap your spine like a dry twig.

You have been slain by Stathan.

Waaait, hold on. I thought they removed the ability to follow someone through JPK?

Benedicto

No that's been around forever. There's just never normally enough Tekura users around to do it. Following isn't really the issue because you could have them wait in room and trigger off the JPK that way. There is also the fact you can follow a Lycan whoring neckdrag for BBT's. Not to mention triggering it from other prone in-room attacks. The 3 BBT instakill stack was brought up in a liaison report in this most recent set of liaisons and it will be being looked at.

Luna

Benedicto said:

No that's been around forever. There's just never normally enough Tekura users around to do it. Following isn't really the issue because you could have them wait in room and trigger off the JPK that way. There is also the fact you can follow a Lycan whoring neckdrag for BBT's. Not to mention triggering it from other prone in-room attacks. The 3 BBT instakill stack was brought up in a liaison report in this most recent set of liaisons and it will be being looked at.

That wasn't a 3-bbt insta, she died to damage. 2,3k + stun from the jpk combo, then 2x bbt for 2,6k~ each. Dead before stun is gone.

Benedicto

Luna said:

Benedicto said:

No that's been around forever. There's just never normally enough Tekura users around to do it. Following isn't really the issue because you could have them wait in room and trigger off the JPK that way. There is also the fact you can follow a Lycan whoring neckdrag for BBT's. Not to mention triggering it from other prone in-room attacks. The 3 BBT instakill stack was brought up in a liaison report in this most recent set of liaisons and it will be being looked at.

That wasn't a 3-bbt insta, she died to damage. 2,3k + stun from the jpk combo, then 2x bbt for 2,6k~ each. Dead before stun is gone.

Correct, but it would be just as much of an issue even if she tanked the damage. I was directly responding to Macians statement about following JPK for BBT's. Not the death itself. The latter part of my statement was to indicate that we're aware of the current issues with team BBTs. Perhaps I could have been clearer. 

Haven

@Benedicto or any other liaison. Is that really a problem that needs fixing? I mean... 1+ > 1. Always.

What we're looking at here is one person against a group of people (4) using a tactic that wouldn't do well against another group beyond the initial strike and only if the other group was unprepared. A group of people using the same class while working in unison (hell, the group doesn't even need to be the same class) can kill any one person with little to no effort. Some classes only need two people working in unison against one person to accomplish similar if not the exact same feat.

Syssin: Two or more using dual delphinium + garrotelock

Lycan: Three or more for an instant-quarter. ( I remember @Arbre used this on me one time during an event.)

Monk: Three or more for an instant-BBT kill. (Illustrated above with JPK. Can also be done with sweep kick if triggered I think.)

And these are just one of several ways of securing a kill without the victim being able to recover off the top of the head.

Ezalor

Haven said:

@Benedicto or any other liaison. Is that really a problem that needs fixing? I mean... 1+ > 1. Always.

What we're looking at here is one person against a group of people (4) using a tactic that wouldn't do well against another group beyond the initial strike and only if the other group was unprepared. A group of people using the same class while working in unison (hell, the group doesn't even need to be the same class) can kill any one person with little to no effort. Some classes only need two people working in unison against one person to accomplish similar if not the exact same feat.

Syssin: Two or more using dual delphinium + garrotelock

Lycan: Three or more for an instant-quarter. ( I remember @Arbre used this on me one time during an event.)

Monk: Three or more for an instant-BBT kill. (Illustrated above with JPK. Can also be done with sweep kick if triggered I think.)

And these are just one of several ways of securing a kill without the victim being able to recover off the top of the head.

The problem comes in 2v2 or 3v3. If all the people on one team are Templars or some variation of trip BBT or hangedman impale, they pretty much win.

Xavin

You uh. Can't bbt off an impale.

Ezalor

Just hangedman impale, I've never faced it but apparently it's super duper lame for lifers from what I've heard. Although I guess the writhe stacking thing makes it a bit less instawin?

Xavin

Ezalor said:

Just hangedman impale, I've never faced it but apparently it's super duper lame for lifers from what I've heard. Although I guess the writhe stacking thing makes it a bit less instawin?

Oh yeah. That is pretty freakin' lame, especially with wrench dealing DMB level damage or higher (pending torso damage) and doesn't clear the writhe. That said, stacking adjustments so we'll see what happens.

Moirean

Haven said:

@Benedicto or any other liaison. Is that really a problem that needs fixing? I mean... 1+ > 1. Always.

What we're looking at here is one person against a group of people (4) using a tactic that wouldn't do well against another group beyond the initial strike and only if the other group was unprepared. A group of people using the same class while working in unison (hell, the group doesn't even need to be the same class) can kill any one person with little to no effort. Some classes only need two people working in unison against one person to accomplish similar if not the exact same feat.

Syssin: Two or more using dual delphinium + garrotelock

Lycan: Three or more for an instant-quarter. ( I remember @Arbre used this on me one time during an event.)

Monk: Three or more for an instant-BBT kill. (Illustrated above with JPK. Can also be done with sweep kick if triggered I think.)

And these are just one of several ways of securing a kill without the victim being able to recover off the top of the head.

I was killing them when I was able to avoid the one-shot kill. Their group of 4-6 did not automatically mean that I was dying - just that combo of abilities did.

Haven

Moirean said:

Haven said:

@Benedicto or any other liaison. Is that really a problem that needs fixing? I mean... 1+ > 1. Always.

What we're looking at here is one person against a group of people (4) using a tactic that wouldn't do well against another group beyond the initial strike and only if the other group was unprepared. A group of people using the same class while working in unison (hell, the group doesn't even need to be the same class) can kill any one person with little to no effort. Some classes only need two people working in unison against one person to accomplish similar if not the exact same feat.

Syssin: Two or more using dual delphinium + garrotelock

Lycan: Three or more for an instant-quarter. ( I remember @Arbre used this on me one time during an event.)

Monk: Three or more for an instant-BBT kill. (Illustrated above with JPK. Can also be done with sweep kick if triggered I think.)

And these are just one of several ways of securing a kill without the victim being able to recover off the top of the head.

I was killing them when I was able to avoid the one-shot kill. Their group of 4-6 did not automatically mean that I was dying - just that combo of abilities did.

Your ability to kill them was not what I was discussing.

Moirean

You're saying that tactics like these are ok because one person against a group is dead anyways. I'm saying, no, I was doing fine and only dying when they used that tactic, which kinda seems to imply that the tactic is stupid if it allows a group of people who can't get a kill through other means suddenly easily and instantly get a kill that the target can't avoid.

Enfeeblerate (incifeeble?) got removed for this reason, as did cipplesection (vivicripple? urface).

Haven

Moirean said:

You're saying that tactics like these are ok because one person against a group is dead anyways. I'm saying, no, I was doing fine and only dying when they used that tactic, which kinda seems to imply that the tactic is stupid if it allows a group of people who can't get a kill through other means suddenly easily and instantly get a kill that the target can't avoid.

Enfeeblerate (incifeeble?) got removed for this reason, as did cipplesection (vivicripple? urface).

I'm saying this tactic is largely negligible and can be ignored because it will only work against a single unmoving/unprepared target or as an initial strike on a group that's unprepared. Vivisect + Kai Cripple, Enfeeble + Incinerate, etc were different because they allowed one group to shred another group with essentially one combo being spammed in-room regardless of what group 2 decided to do. Try this tactic against a group of combatants and see how far it gets you.

The only difference between this tactic and the other ones utilised against you as far as I know is that the other ones allowed you enough time to flee to your custom wings room before you could die.

Moirean

Hardly the case. 3 BBTs used in conjunction is a serious oversight and can be spammed in room. Jumpkick can also easily be spammed unless you actively work to stop it.

As for the fight, claiming custom wings was my "win button" hardly explains why I was getting kills. There was very little actual combat coordination from  the team, aside from spamming that attack. For example, at one point I was able to gallop in, rub death and gallop out enough times to return for a fling AND execute it for a kill - not once during that span was an icewall dropped, piety laid, alertness/hypersight/something to track me used, arrows used to push pressure when I moved, a new room chosen, or the death fling stopped.

Benedicto

Moirean said:

Hardly the case. 3 BBTs used in conjunction is a serious oversight and can be spammed in room. 

That's not necessarily true. If you're not prone it misses and still takes the balance which is 3.5 seconds as Dex.

Moirean

Bene don't be silly. You know half the lifers do (or at least did) have triggers to BBT when it's called on Frontline/Dion. It's part of the reason Enorian won its first war >_>

Haven

Moirean said:

Hardly the case. 3 BBTs used in conjunction is a serious oversight and can be spammed in room. Jumpkick can also easily be spammed unless you actively work to stop it.

As for the fight, claiming custom wings was my "win button" hardly explains why I was getting kills. There was very little actual combat coordination from  the team, aside from spamming that attack. For example, at one point I was able to gallop in, rub death and gallop out enough times to return for a fling AND execute it for a kill - not once during that span was an icewall dropped, piety laid, alertness/hypersight/something to track me used, arrows used to push pressure when I moved, a new room chosen, or the death fling stopped.

Are we even talking about the same thing? =/

In a group vs group scenario, JPK + 3 BBT won't let you kill an entire team like Vivicripple/Enfeeberate did. You'll kill at most one person during the initial surprise and that's about it. And that's relying on the scenario of the other group being unprepared and caught off guard. The second group has several choices: 1) be defensive and shield to regain their bearings from the surprise. 2) be offensive and actually attack one or several of the monks at hand.

And I didn't say custom wings was your win button. Simmer your pride down, I'm not calling into question your combat ability or anything. The only reason I mentioned your custom wings was to counter your argument of being able to survive the onslaught of a group and illustrate why you didn't automatically die (because you stayed on the move). Can't say I blame you either, who in their right mind would stay in-room and solo 4 monks let alone 4 players? Especially when some were artifacted.

Moirean

Those 2 skills which got changed are almost exactly like JPK + BBT - they only worked when you had full kai, so they only really reliably worked as opening attacks to instagibb someone with. If anything, stacking BBTs are worse because they can be used without that setup.

Haven

Moirean said:

Those 2 skills which got changed are almost exactly like JPK + BBT - they only worked when you had full kai, so they only really reliably worked as opening attacks to instagibb someone with. If anything, stacking BBTs are worse because they can be used without that setup.

Oh, come on. You can't seriously believe that! In team fights generating kai was wicked easy to do back then. So back then maintaining Vivicripple was easy as pie and wasn't limited to opening attacks. The only option they really had back then I think was to flee when a monk was around or zerg the hell outta the monk before they reached cripple status since just about anything you did generated kai for the monk.

Ezalor

Jumpkick is at least defensible by keeping them in the room. But Shaman Slam + BBT? Slam knocks you prone and takes you off balance for a bit, so you are guaranteed a kill on someone in 3 rounds. It's pretty much the same as hangedman BBT (which isn't possible). Or 2 Templar Retribution. You can instakill anyone in about 6 seconds with that, and I am pretty sure if Belgarion or Kaeus found another competent Templar partner to set it up with them lifers would never lose another teamfight that they weren't massively outnumbered in.

There definitely are some overpowered teamfight tactics still in the game.

Illikaal

Ezalor said:

Jumpkick is at least defensible by keeping them in the room. But Shaman Slam + BBT? Slam knocks you prone and takes you off balance for a bit, so you are guaranteed a kill on someone in 3 rounds. It's pretty much the same as hangedman BBT (which isn't possible). Or 2 Templar Retribution. You can instakill anyone in about 6 seconds with that, and I am pretty sure if Belgarion or Kaeus found another competent Templar partner to set it up with them lifers would never lose another teamfight that they weren't massively outnumbered in.

There definitely are some overpowered teamfight tactics still in the game.

Lycanthrope leapslash, Sentinel trip, etc. can all be done in the exact same fashion too. Lycanthrope leapslash would be more potent since it actually does decent damage, and is a full second faster than Shaman slam. 

Ilyon

Argh, retribution -again-, hasn't that thing been nerfed like five times already Sixth time's the charm, I guess.

Benedicto

Ilyon said:

Argh, retribution -again-, hasn't that thing been nerfed like five times already Sixth time's the charm, I guess.

This is in a team situation, like any of the previously mentioned kill set-ups a group is always going to have a way of doing it. It could just have easily been web whoring/cleave, double delph/garrote, prone/bbt, hangman/impale. You don't nerf a skill at the expense of the 1v1 requirements because more than one person targeting an individual can set it up. If it's too much of an issue in team combat then you make the cripple and disrupt empowerment only specific to the person that cast originally so that it can't be stacked like that, but then if you start down that route then you need to look at every single method of insta-kill in that regard. 

Ilyon

Benedicto said:

Ilyon said:

Argh, retribution -again-, hasn't that thing been nerfed like five times already Sixth time's the charm, I guess.

This is in a team situation, like any of the previously mentioned kill set-ups a group is always going to have a way of doing it. It could just have easily been web whoring/cleave, double delph/garrote, prone/bbt, hangman/impale. You don't nerf a skill at the expense of the 1v1 requirements because more than one person targeting an individual can set it up. If it's too much of an issue in team combat then you make the cripple and disrupt empowerment only specific to the person that cast originally so that it can't be stacked like that, but then if you start down that route then you need to look at every single method of insta-kill in that regard. 

That's just the thing, there aren't any other team kill-setups that scale anywhere close to this one - the closest thing is probably vivisect, which requires a longer setup (or more people), as it's all salve affs which cure faster. What you list is all potentially effective, but it won't win you a 2v2 fight in 4-6 seconds. Retri will, unless the other group has a class with something like kai banish or hangedman, and that's why it needs to change.

And yes, tracking affliction owners may help, though it's hard to say if it would resolve the problem, considering the other templar can just spam curare/darkshade.

Ezalor

Yeah nothing really comes close to multi Retribution. Spamming shield/sitting behind rebounding won't stop it either because Templars can strip it instantly (razestrike) or even strip both instantly (empower blaze + razestrike) at minimal balance cost. It is about a 6 second guaranteed kill against anyone, slightly longer if they shield.

While I don't think the skill is problematic 1v1 (although it is possible to use nothing but Retri affs and curare darkshade and eventually get it off, you forgo a lot of hindering that way, vlock Retri is still probably the better route), it's definitely overpowered when you introduce more than 1 Templar.

Benedicto

Ilyon said:

And yes, tracking affliction owners may help, though it's hard to say if it would resolve the problem, considering the other templar can just spam curare/darkshade.

But then that would give it just as much a degree of difficulty as most of the other instakill combinations. I'm not in any way denying that it's ability to stack as quickly as it can is acceptable. I'm one hundred percent in agreement. I'm just a bit leery of the "OMGNERF" call against a skill which there's not a problem with 1v1. Ultimately this argument turns into "who can cry the hardest" which is always frustrating and tedious to read on the forums. Now this is the owned thread and the last couple of pages have been mostly argumentative and not a lot of "Owned" has been posted. Can we get back to that please? Set up another topic based around the variations of group instakills that are possible so they can be discussed sensibly?

Daskalos

Double Epseth\Double Epteth\Vivisection is just as potent (and add a fourth person to raze and you've got the same amount of people as the jpk\bbt trick.)

Leapslash can be chained to keep you balance locked until you die if done with enough people. Group combat is group combat. It sucks, but if you start going after -1- scenario then people will feel like you're picking on them. Focus on group combat for a liaison round if it becomes too big a problem.

Calipso

any form of mechanic combo that allows for an instant death with no resistence or fighting back capable of the victim, is in itself a bad combat mechanic and should not exist. As was said by a producer of another game "A gimick which gives you an advantage may be fun to use by you, but it is ruining the experience of the others. You have to ask yourself how your capability is affecting others."

Simply put, if a victim is hit with a combo that makes them stunned and unable to fight back and only watch as they are killed in less than breath taken, then yes, that needs fixing.

Examples:

Vivisect-Kai cripple.
Absolve-Kai enfeeble.


Constant firings of delphinium or epteth/epseth are not in the same criteria here. If a victim had 2 syssin double epteth/epseth him, and a necromancer standing aside waiting patiently for a vivisect, then I would have to think that victim isnt much a combatant. Solutions such as rebounding, shield, survival restore, all counter a syssin offensive and if anything the victim would be taking advantage of such a weak tactic to beat down the opponents. Also it would take much longer before they can get their kill combo off than a 1 second tripple BBT-JPK :P.

to sum it up, no, combos such as these should not be incorporated into IRE combat and we have seen them weeded out within the other IRE games as well.  Achaea made it near impossible to combo off a Kaido move now, as well as lusternia with their changes to trample and crucifix. Group combat should be fun, not a "lol-pwned!"

Ezrax

Anyone else notice most of the dirty combos seem to involve Monks?

Daskalos

Hold on... so you're saying it's ok for double epseth\epteth deliver by 2 people for an instant vivisection, to instantly kill, guaranteed, but you have a problem with JPK\BBT chaining? If done right, both take the same amount of skill.

If you're going to fix it, fix it all. Don't cherry pick the ones that personally give -you- trouble.

Do you realize how incredibly hypocritical you sound?