Legacy Class Discussion

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  • EzalorEzalor Emperor D'baen Canada
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    DharIllikaalAngweMoirean
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotion
    edited March 2013
    @Calipso: If you don't want to listen to Illidan, fine. He is being a little condescending and probably does need to lay off.

    On the subject of Clouser and to be fair, he exploited the combat rankings and fought a bunch of people repeatedly that threw in the towel against him to basically farm his ranking. His achievement isn't an accurate depiction of the Cabalist class and its current state. If you want to name a good, successful Cabalist: Sintor.

    However, Xavin is a liaison and has access to the liaison arena where they are capable of testing all classes and playing all classes to identify strengths and weaknesses. Xavin CAN play as a Cabalist and fight in said arena with any set of parameters he needs to test. I tested with Cabalist way back when too and I can also state as to what is good and what is wrong with the class as they've not changed much save for the necessary downgrades to elicit return when it worked despite monoliths. Granted, a lot of escape abilities got the stick at that time as well.

    No one is saying that you're not very strong offensively. That's commonly accepted, actually. However, you will find that people will not support granting Cabalist buffs if they don't take a hit in their defensive utility/survivability, which is presently through the roof with pathfinder, elicit return, direcall for escapes. Oneness provides a passive curing of mental affs every 15 seconds, you can "level" your afflictions with an opponent, you have Link as a sort of psuedo-tanking ability, an incredibly potent passive entourage, a great way to keep people from running with Gravehands, decent ranged capabilities for group fights with Doppleganger, and the best group displacement ability in the game: Pit.

    It's precisely for the above mentioned reasons that people have reservations for buffing Cabalists. You have to make a trade somewhere. The other problem is that since Cabalists have a lot of potential in their abilities that the act of buffing something in Numerology or Domination will likely push something over the top.

    So basically, I don't disagree that Cabalists have problems offensively against top-tier combatants. People just can't justify buffing a Cabalist when they have all the defensive utility and survivability that they currently have.
  • Clouser was plenty dangerous with the new disturb-based unravel. Easily one of my toughest at that time. Thing is, even if tweak spam won't kill you quickly, cabalists force you to fight aggressively to have a chance to beat them. Not diagnosing for tweak in turn makes it more likely they'll land a disturb, which makes the next one much easier. This basically means you had to be at least a little defensive when fighting them, which in turn means you're pretty unlikely to ever get close to killing them.


    I assume a lot must've changed in the game if there's consensus on their offense sucking.

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  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotion
    I believe Tweak was also changed to not go through shield, as that was believed to be over-the-top. I know it was discussed at one point but I'm not one-hundred percent as to whether or not it was implemented. Other than being forced to diagnose, his web tattoo spam, and his over-reliance on hunger tactics, I never had a problem with Clouser once rations were introduced.
  • No, that's pretty much the way it is. Just people are getting more adept at knowing when to diagnose.

  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotion
    Then yeah, nothing has changed. I have tweak highlighted and I diagnose at two tweaks. Shrug.
  • Please don't tell everyone Cabalists are good because they have Domination. Having domination doesn't make you a good fighter. It means you threw 300cr at a single command: order entourage kill (dude).
    Esper
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotion
    edited March 2013

    Ezrax said:
    Please don't tell everyone Cabalists are good because they have Domination. Having domination doesn't make you a good fighter. It means you threw 300cr at a single command: order entourage kill (dude).
    No one said anything remotely like that.

    We said that Domination is strong passive skillset, which it is regardless of your hatred of the mechanics behind it.
  • IllikaalIllikaal Pray Area
    Ezrax said:
    Please don't tell everyone Cabalists are good because they have Domination. Having domination doesn't make you a good fighter. It means you threw 300cr at a single command: order entourage kill (dude).
    Druids were the same way. Grove thorns/entanglement/barrier/hypercure on, lol@ everyone. Spam maul. Win fights. If the target was someone super tanky, like Daskalos, Tessra, or Alexina, well, you didn't ever win a fight. Just because I couldn't autobash the above people to death with old Druidry did not suddenly mean that Groves and Metamorphosis sucked. They WERE badly designed, but still, you could definitely get some use out of the class. 

    The druids didn't raise cain about it. They just waited patiently for their rework, and/or just picked up another class to hold them over in the meantime. There's no use in crying over spilled milk. 

    The whole point is, everyone keeps on saying the same thing, but nobody seems to grasp it. Cabalists are terribly designed. They are absolutely lacking in some aspects, and they need help. But they are NOT a completely unviable class that you can't get a drop of use out of. 
    "And finally, swear to Me: You will give your life to Dendara for you are Tiarna an-Kiar."
    Haven
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander Portland
    Just a side note about Pit: It doesn't appear to work at lessers anymore. I've tried dropping them, and it doesn't work. Tina says they removed the ability for them to be used in unstable areas. :(
  • IllikaalIllikaal Pray Area
    I believe they did. It's really not hard to figure out why. 
    "And finally, swear to Me: You will give your life to Dendara for you are Tiarna an-Kiar."
    CalipsoSeir
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander Portland
    Just pointing out that its utility is actually less than being claimed, since lessers are basically the main team combat mechanic right now.
  • IllikaalIllikaal Pray Area
    I'm not sure why you're exactly complaining about the pit int he first place, since it's never been used as anything more than a griefing mechanic. Used in wars to stop people from defending their troops. Used in holywars to stop people from defiling shrines. WAS used in Lessers (The last Major) so that nobody could ever extract. 

    Just because pit is unusable ine ONE situation doesn't magically make the rest of the skills useless. 
    "And finally, swear to Me: You will give your life to Dendara for you are Tiarna an-Kiar."
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander Portland
    I'm not complaining about Pit.
    ArbreAmara
  • edited March 2013
    I love how they are attempting to justify why a transcendent ability was made unusable in lessers simply because they cried "Grief!" to get it removed. It seems the same like that for the Shadow-side i've gathered. Spirit-side cry victim and grief for an ability until the point it gets changed just to get some peace and quiet.

    Here are some other mechanics that are considered "unfair" for lessers, but we generally dont bitch about them.

    Rites: Not all rites can be banished (god knows why) but if a luminary just places a displacement rite down in the lesser, then they can pop extractors one at a time to them.

    Radiance: even with a shield to place telepathy, it drains like crazy to maintain it, so you are probably not going to have it up beforehand. 1 telepath walks in the area, locks and begins radiance on the extractor, and then the extractor needs to leave  the area and return to a long ass waiting period of Refining Control.




    SeirAmaraIllikaal
  • Umm. I don't do that much PK in Aetolia, but I've been on other IRE games with the same skills(Pit, Rites, and Radiance), and there is a super huge vast difference between why the Pit would be different in comparison to Radiance as far as 'unfair' goes. The Pit requires like no interaction and no real way to stop it. Radiance, you have a channel time, and if you have some people with you they can always go kill the person to stop it. You're comparing apples to bananas here.

    Staying on topic though as far as 'Legacy Class Discussion' goes, speaking of the Pit, I've always thought that skill is pretty dumb anyways. Noone likes to use it, noone likes it used on them, and it's just blah. I always thought it'd be far more interesting to have an entirely new entity that did something new and useful and interesting than have a hole open up in the ground that noone can really avoid. I had this idea some time ago that it'd be neat to get an entity like a 'demon lord' or some such, and what he does is randomly each tick try to resummon a demon that you may not already have summoned(it being destroyed by rites or otherwise), that way you could catch up if you're behind on resummoning them.

    Just a thought.
    "Hell hath no hold on a warrior’s mind, see how the snow has made each of us blind. Vibrant colors spray from new dead, staining the earth such a beautiful red."
  • edited March 2013
    They tried that for a while, Malok. For about...a year or so, golgotha would summon a pit demon (the centipede was the best of them) or, if you had high enough domination and no one else had it active at the moment...you could summon golgotha himself, or an aspect of him.

    It was, in general, overpowered.


    Edit: Your idea is neat, though. Might be workable.

    Malok
  • DaskalosDaskalos Credit Whore Extraordinare Rolling amongst piles of credits.
    @calipso - You can have your Pit back as soon as I can have non-end-on-death-only-works-on-enemies Rite of Warding back.

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    Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis           Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
    "If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."

  • IllikaalIllikaal Pray Area
    edited March 2013
    Calipso said:
    I love how they are attempting to justify why a transcendent ability was made unusable in lessers simply because they cried "Grief!" to get it removed. It seems the same like that for the Shadow-side i've gathered. Spirit-side cry victim and grief for an ability until the point it gets changed just to get some peace and quiet.

    Here are some other mechanics that are considered "unfair" for lessers, but we generally dont bitch about them.

    Rites: Not all rites can be banished (god knows why) but if a luminary just places a displacement rite down in the lesser, then they can pop extractors one at a time to them.

    Radiance: even with a shield to place telepathy, it drains like crazy to maintain it, so you are probably not going to have it up beforehand. 1 telepath walks in the area, locks and begins radiance on the extractor, and then the extractor needs to leave  the area and return to a long ass waiting period of Refining Control.




    Its funny you should say that, actually. Bloodloch was indeed constantly using the Pit of Golgotha during wartime, while you were still playing Achaea. This was back when pit only hit the enemies of the user. That very same war, Pit was changed to hit everyone, regardless of enemy/ally status. What made it funny was that the entire Bloodloch team was slaughtered in the pit, while the Enorianites made it out just fine. Not a single pit was placed again during that war. The reason why the Pit was so heavily complained about by the lifers was because 1. There was absolutely no way to counter the pit itself, stopping it, closing it, preventing it from being opened in the first place, etc. The best you can do is sip levitation, and all it required was a mage + the pit being open for people to get sucked in really easily. 2. There's not a single skill on the Lifer side that you can even remotely compare pit to. 

    Also, if you learned how to apply mass regularly, you'd learn that the convocation rite is easily countered. That's the equivalent of saying an Indorani can pop users to them one at a time via lust. They -can-, but there are ways to deal with it. 

    Also, Bloodloch and Spinesreach have monks. We deal with it just the same that you do. I don't understand why you're griping about radiance when it's a 30 second EQ time, and if your team isn't powerful enough to go assassinate the person who's casting the radiance in the first place, then you were probably going to lose in the first place. But again, there's the refining defense that stops telepaths, sooooooo. Deal with it. 
    "And finally, swear to Me: You will give your life to Dendara for you are Tiarna an-Kiar."
    LunaCalipsoRivas
  • ExodusExodus New Zealand
    I must apologise for not seeing it initially - the fact that this isn't a thread about so called 'legacy classes.'

    This is a thread where proponents from either side are competing to show that some classes, sometimes their own classes, are worse off than others. It's a fight among those that have played more, fought more, experienced more, against anyone that has done less than they have. It's the the eternal struggle for extra benefits and developer attention: do too well, and you're either nerfed, or get no attention. Do too badly, and your play time sucks, but eventually something changes. Welcome to another liaisons thread.

    I am by no means innocent of this myself, having produced various topics on Syssin/Shadowsnakes over the last decade (that's elitism for you), but consider that only now do I bring Syssin up in this thread. Consider that this post is the first mention of Syssin in this topic - a class that's as much a candidate for the title of 'legacy class' as any other.

    So why, then, has it not been mentioned? Is it their impending doom by way of disbanding and the reduction of total classes available? I think every game needs to maintain a rogue class, so that's not it. Go ahead and reread some of the posts in this thread, and you'll likely come to the same conclusion that I did - this is about the problems that some classes face, who just happen to also be among the oldest classes.

    Syssin however, buck the trend. As a class that's old as any other you might mention, they're apparently in such a good place right now, that they don't need to be mentioned. They don't need the attention that other legacy classes do, because skill wise, team fight wise, 1v1 wise, 5v1, 1v9, cooking, origami, and population wise - they're fine, in every respect.

    So really, what are you reading here? Yet another post where Exodus plays devil's advocate on the state of Syssin? Perhaps a thread that focuses on how older classes haven't been brought up to the level of newer ones yet (lol carnifex)? How about the simple fact that the squeaky wheel continues to be a pain in the arse, but still works just fine.

  • Fairly sure they're not actually getting the axe as a class? I think some godperson mentioned that somewhere. I don't think they're reducing the number of classes at all.


    And lots of old classes are balanced very nicely. They've been worked at and polished for so long, tested for so long, they're naturally in a much better place. The exceptions are the ones where the concept itself was flawed, such as druid. Paladins and monks were some of the best balanced classes in the game. Syssin too are pretty awesome.


    I think there's a real issue with design though. The old classes have already beaten the path and at this point people are much more conservative than they would have been at the start of the game. Venom stacks/affliction stacks are such a complicated, heavy system, but it was essentially a thing only shadowsnakes used to play around with at the very start. Limb damage is also complicated and difficult to manage and it was the domain of monks, almost exclusively, at the start of the game. Now those two things are how we think of 'combat' in the game and every new class has to use them, because making a THIRD system like them would make things too complicated. Is it really a surprise that eventually all classes get molded down to herb or salve based combat?

    So I'm thinking how it's really hard to actually design a unique class now. It's like people's thinking is so warped by the herb/salve game that they have a hard time thinking outside of it.

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  • SerriceSerrice the Black Fox
    If you want a game where they DID create a new system for each class, go to Lusternia. Wowza.
     
    Calipso
  • ExodusExodus New Zealand
    edited March 2013
    Hadoryu said:
    Venom stacks/affliction stacks are such a complicated, heavy system, but it was essentially a thing only shadowsnakes used to play around with at the very start. Limb damage is also complicated and difficult to manage and it was the domain of monks, almost exclusively, at the start of the game. Now those two things are how we think of 'combat' in the game and every new class has to use them, because making a THIRD system like them would make things too complicated. Is it really a surprise that eventually all classes get molded down to herb or salve based combat?

    So I'm thinking how it's really hard to actually design a unique class now. It's like people's thinking is so warped by the herb/salve game that they have a hard time thinking outside of it.

    I'll give you that. It was afflictions, or it was limb damage, or it was damage. Now it's every possible combination of all three. Except for Syssin. Still just afflictions for Syssin.
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander Portland
    edited March 2013
    Something I've noticed over time with Aetolia is that we keep seeing new afflictions creep in. To players who play constantly that isn't so bad, but for new players, this affliction bloat has created a system that is pretty daunting to step into and systems have become basically mandatory these days, which creates a high barrier of entry to combat. In addition, the preponderance of good systems these days really highlights where offensive options are limited, and extra afflictions on the cure table do nothing to augment these limited offenses when you're fighting a well-built system. I hope the revamps focus on adding new ways to do things, such as tactical skill choices (using things like CDs on skills to reward good timing and smart choices at the right time), versus adding to the spread of things to cure.
    CalipsoCiarelleEdhainEsperAmara
  • I love that Imperian implemented autocuring, pretty much for that reason.

    Granted, I haven't tried it, but it's working out for them apparently.

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    Calipso
  • On the topic of Clouser, I think he actually got tougher to fight after the change. Before it, I wasn't worried about him killing me at all (talking about 1v1 duels here) and afterwards he killed me twice.

    Either way, I think before meaningful change is enacted for both Indorani and Cabalists, domination needs a total revamp. It's mostly a carry-over skill from Achaea anyway. Maybe delete several of the mobs and keep a few that can be controlled via player commands for special attacks as well as passive generic attack. The flavor would have to be changed to be Aet-specific too.
    HadoryuAmara
  • I like the way new Tera gets a customizable Golem, maybe with new Cabal they can get something along the lines of a lesser Demon that they raise and train to a full fledged Chaos Demon. Give a few different options of demons to specialize in based off of Numerology.

    EdhainPiperAmara
  • Different demon specializations sounds really awesome. That way you could have several different styles of Cabalist combat, too, beyond just switchable tactics.
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander Portland
    Tangent, but what about the proposal from a while back to slow -everything- down? The relative timings would remain the same, but combat itself would be slower. I remember that proposed change seemed to have nearly unanimous support from the players, and would help make hopping into combat and seeing through the spam in a team fight more easy.
    Amara
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