Racial Flavour (not that kind of flavor)

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  • EliadonEliadon Somewhere Over the RainbowPosts: 63Member ✭✭✭
    Tsol'aa is delicious when properly prepared, strip off the meats from the bones and cook them over a lightly burning oak wood fire.
    TiurVyxsis
  • LeanaLeana Posts: 92Member ✭✭✭
    I understand what @Shachalai and @Koda and @Zaila are saying. You want rules because you believe it keeps the fantasy setting more immersive by allowing it to be feasible in your minds. That may be true for you and I can't deny that fact, but that is not the truth for everyone. In the same vein that half-breeds may pull you out of immersion, I find other aspects of the game to do the same for me. Such as tells, city/guild/house/clan, especially when people send emoticons or emotes in them like : smile :. It make communication instant and impersonal and I don't think it's ever been canonically stated how it works. I still use tells, because not using them would be a huge inconvenience and I'm able to deal with it and enjoy the game otherwise. Granted, I would love to see emotes be integrated into them as some of the other IREs have it and some sort of lore device, like a big psychic beacon in each city that makes it possible to speak via these channels and clan owners have to tether theirs to one for the CLT functions to work. Could even make that a target for raiding.

    In the same way, if the Admin just accepted canonically that half-breeds can exist(As Damariel mentioned in that quote), that should help those who want more structure. There won't be an influx of half-breeds because not everyone wants to play one and both sides of the debate(yes, it's a debate) will be appeased. In a world of magic, where angels can be turned in horrible monsters, Gods can turn metal into replacement appendages that function the same way, and inanimate objects can be made sentient through manipulation of these energies - it's not out of the realms to assume that species will intermingle on occasion. Maybe the inter-special couple has to pray to a God for some love essence. The fact that it's canonically allowed that they have children or same-sex couples can have children, is more jarring in my opinion. A horkval and mhun may not be compatible, but they'll have a kid that's either horkval or mhun? Not something that shares a feature of both, or died horribly, or should be killed horribly? If we're drawing lines, someone jumped the gun.


    I ask this question: If the Admin stated that half-breeds are canon, but they had to follow certain guidelines to not be outrageous, would the majority of the people arguing be content?

    I mean 'Stated' in the sense that a HELP HALFBREEDS scroll is created. It would allow for rules and guidelines to make the world more immersive and allow for current and future hybrids to edit their roleplay to fall more in line with the established canon. It would also allow people to break the guidelines if they wanted, but still be within the realms of possibility. No skills needed, either.


  • EliadonEliadon Somewhere Over the RainbowPosts: 63Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 5
    Doesn't make any unicorns sense for any race to be able to reproduce successfully with any other race. I vote 'half-breeds break my immersions' to the above.
    Post edited by Eliadon on
    Koda
  • ShachalaiShachalai Posts: 30Member ✭✭
    It's not that we want rules - no. We have rules because things were a mess without them. We have had these rules for a long time, as Teani said. I think that point is really important to keep emphasizing.

    No, I don't want halfbreeds canonized in Aetolia. I think that would be ridiculous and ill-reflected by the existing mechanics.
  • ErzsebetErzsebet Posts: 1,104Member ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Leana I ask this question: If the Admin stated that half-breeds are canon, but they had to follow certain guidelines to not be outrageous, would the majority of the people arguing be content?

    The problem here, is that opening that door, opens that -entire- can of worms, and forces the admin to come up with individual race biology. Which traits are dominant, etc. If we want the world to be fun and interesting, they need to be doing something with their time beyond drawing up 800 punnet squares to determine which traits would win out at which point in a lineage.

    imageimage
  • LeanaLeana Posts: 92Member ✭✭✭
    lockquote class="Quote" rel="Teani">Just to toss my two cents in: the stance of no half-breeds was clear to me when I started playing this game over a decade ago. It's been there.

    How did you know this from the moment you started Aetolia? It isn't listed in any HELP file. What do you expect a new player to do? Do you want them to go to the forums, search countless posts, post for ideas on what they plan to do with their character, and then go to the game? Or in the game itself start asking people -after the fact-? That is ridiculous.

    If it wasn't stated in game, it's not part of the game. Forums are not canon.
    Teani said:

    It's been spoken of, but some people have sort of (or even blatantly) ignored it. Some people might have started something without even asking, and thus not knowing, and then they were too far into their RP to feel like they could back down. Some people were perhaps not informed properly when they asked around to begin with, or the people they asked didn't know themselves and just went with the easiest "go for it" answer. Who knows? 

    All I can say is that I've heard the Admin have this stance throughout my playtime, and it's not been a one-time mentioning in a random context either. I just don't have the time or inclination to chase down quotes to back it up.

    This entire segment basically supports my point: the stance is not helpful for players and only serves to divide them on an out of character level. A player who isn't blatantly ignoring something that they can't find or can't be informed of properly is shunned by the other players in real life, just for trying to play a game.
    Teani said:


    The Admin has once again stated that this is their stance on half-breeds, which is to say there are none. A dominant trait determines the race of the child of parents of different races. It is up to the parents themselves to determine which one this will be. It also makes sense from the character creation point of view, since one has to specify a race to play, not a combination. It brings consistency to the game in a way, so I agree with their stance.

    Canonizing things means people have something to lean back against, or something to use as a guide as they develop their characters. It brings stability and less uncertainty to the game, making the world seem more real and easier to immerse oneself.

    One admin has stated in a forum post their stance and it is not being debated by the playerbase, though I'm still unsure why there is so much hatred for such a benign aspect of the game that has existed for nearly two decades. Why can't the players just see, 'Oh, this person is using the half-breed aspect to formulate a character trait, let me see what else they got,' when instead I see is, 'Lawl, half-breed, kill it with fire. What a joke.'

    Also, I was never saying they should be a combination of both races mechanically. One race would be dominant and there would be superficial physical traits shown in the description. It's an ancestry. In the same way that not all Rajamalan are bengal tigers. The concept of a bloodline in Aetolia has always been ignored, not referencing the BLOODLINE mechanic. Few, if any, children look like their parents or even resemble their race. You may have experiences that counter this, fine. I have experiences that support. The point is that the waters are muddy and this is not the place to build a foundation to make the game more immersive.

    People are still going to do it and you're just going to have a bad time because you believe they're breaking some rules when they aren't, they're going against a minority's interpretation of how things are supposed to be.
    Teani said:




    Besides, all games have rules, you know?

    Yeah, they're usually in the game. Except this one isn't. Then that means it's not a rule. Just like landing on free parking gets you the public taxes not being a rule in Monopoly.
    Eliadon said:

    Doesn't make any unicorns sense for any race to be able to reproduce successfully with any other race. I vote 'jhalf-breeds break my immersions' to the above.

    Except its canon that the races can reproduce. That's not my point, that was stated by the admin. If half-breeds are where you draw the line, fine, but can you admit that it makes no sense that they can reproduce and that their children don't share traits from both?
    Shachalai said:

    It's not that we want rules - no. We have rules because things were a mess without them. We have had these rules for a long time, as Teani said. I think that point is really important to keep emphasizing.

    No, I don't want halfbreeds canonized in Aetolia. I think that would be ridiculous and ill-reflected by the existing mechanics.

    We don't have rules. Not about this, that's the whole point of this debate. Why don't you see that? There are no rules for this, only assumptions and hearsay until recently that a forum post was made. Forums are not canon. That was stated many times in game as well as here.

    If the admin don't want to state it in game, then stop arguing this and let people enjoy the game and stop trying to meddle with their fun.


    Erzsebet
  • ShachalaiShachalai Posts: 30Member ✭✭
    Leana said:

    We don't have rules. Not about this, that's the whole point of this debate. Why don't you see that? There are no rules for this, only assumptions and hearsay until recently that a forum post was made. Forums are not canon. That was stated many times in game as well as here.

    If the admin don't want to state it in game, then stop arguing this and let people enjoy the game and stop trying to meddle with their fun.

    That's a direct statement from a God, made on a thread specifically meant to answer questions about the game, three full years before this discussion came up. That statement reflects an established standard which preceded it. The community follows this standard because it enhances our enjoyment of the game.

    Setting standards is not meddling. Attempting to downplay an established standard by calling it 'assumptions and hearsay' is meddling, and more to the point, it's transparently incorrect.
  • LeanaLeana Posts: 92Member ✭✭✭
    Erzsebet said:

    @Leana I ask this question: If the Admin stated that half-breeds are canon, but they had to follow certain guidelines to not be outrageous, would the majority of the people arguing be content?

    The problem here, is that opening that door, opens that -entire- can of worms, and forces the admin to come up with individual race biology. Which traits are dominant, etc. If we want the world to be fun and interesting, they need to be doing something with their time beyond drawing up 800 punnet squares to determine which traits would win out at which point in a lineage.

    If I come off rude, it's merely frustration because I can't covey my thoughts properly and it seems like everyone is taking things the wrong way.

    My question is: Why? I really don't get how you made that jump in logic from halfe-breeds therefore genetic map of each race.

    That's the player's job. Just because traits are dominant and recessive traits doesn't mean that they will get them. There is no need to break down every detail of a race for this work, nor should you and I would be against it. The same logic should be applied to everyone with two parents of the same race. Why don't you have brown eyes and red hair? Both your parents did. Do you see my point? Even amongst two species, if you wanted to, you could breakdown genetics from the parents, grandparents, and further back. It's not needed when designing. Sticking to the Rajamala example, there are various types that play, black fur, white, red, stripped, etc. If you wanted to be a half-breed Rajamala human, I would decide my design first and not think about the genetics.

    The guidelines would be a way to tell them, 'Hey, when designing your half-breed, keep in mind that the occurrence is rare and most don't live to maturity. As such, a successful hybrid will be more dominant in one race with hints of another, not a melding of both.'

    As I said previously, it would be a guideline to try and reel in outrageous half-breeds but allow for the blatant ones to run amok and let the population of the game deal with them in context. There are Horkval designed like spiders with multiple limbs that go against mechanics as they should be allowed to hold six weapons. Imagine a Templar doing a HSL! Hexa-slash. Lock in one round.


  • AnteheAntehe Posts: 396Member, Immortal Immortal
    The stance on half breeds and womb-choice is now stated at the top of HELP RACES.
    ZailaKoda
  • LeanaLeana Posts: 92Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 4
    Shachalai said:

    Leana said:

    We don't have rules. Not about this, that's the whole point of this debate. Why don't you see that? There are no rules for this, only assumptions and hearsay until recently that a forum post was made. Forums are not canon. That was stated many times in game as well as here.

    If the admin don't want to state it in game, then stop arguing this and let people enjoy the game and stop trying to meddle with their fun.

    That's a direct statement from a God, made on a thread specifically meant to answer questions about the game, three full years before this discussion came up. That statement reflects an established standard which preceded it. The community follows this standard because it enhances our enjoyment of the game.

    Setting standards is not meddling. Attempting to downplay an established standard by calling it 'assumptions and hearsay' is meddling, and more to the point, it's transparently incorrect.
    I addressed this in my post if you read it. Forums are not canon. Your attempt to attack me rather than my points is a bit discouraging to the debate, but I will go ahead and quote the referenced Admin once more:
    Damariel said:


    Phoenecia said:

    So, regarding all of the races that lay eggs (Grecht, Xorani, Horkval, and I'm assuming Grook and Kelki), how the heck is it possible for them to interbreed with the races that bear live young?


    Kelki, in a manner similar to dolphins, bear live young. The rest of those races, however, have egg-laying reproduction.

    As for how interbreeding between them is possible, we do not officially endorse interbreeding between any Aetolian races as canon. While half-breeds, both NPC and PC, have existed and continue to exist in the game, they tend to bear closer resemblance to one parent or the other.


    The post does not state half-breeds are not canon, it states that they do not support inter-species breeding and that half-breeds are canon within the game as both player and NPC and that, as I said in previous posts, bear closer resemblance to one parent or the other.


  • LeanaLeana Posts: 92Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 4
    Antehe said:

    The stance on half breeds and womb-choice is now stated at the top of HELP RACES.

    Thanks for not considering my point or responding to it at all.

    edit: For the record, one of D&D's base races is 'Half-orc' and 'Half-elf'. :pensive:


  • ShachalaiShachalai Posts: 30Member ✭✭
    edited December 5
    I am not attacking you, Leana. You are being condescending and hostile to everyone who disagrees with you. The statement acknowledges the existence of halfbreed characters, but explicitly defers from enshrining them as canon. The implication seems to be "we are not doing this anymore, but we used to." It's sort of the same way that existing characters named Nightshadow and Bigoledoorknob don't invalidate the current naming rules.

    This still isn't a debate, particularly in light of the recent change made to HELP RACES. This is a case where there is a correct answer.
    Post edited by Shachalai on
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in AtticaPosts: 480Member ✭✭✭✭✭
    Leana said:


    If it wasn't stated in game, it's not part of the game. Forums are not canon.

    This is actually a bit of a flawed belief because if you'll look at the Aetolia Development section, particularly the topic on Grecht lore, ALL OF THAT is canon. However, because the Celani in charge of all that info stepped down, none of those things were able to be distributed in-game, but are still things Plateau Grecht are expected to know.

    In the same fashion, current administration could, if they wanted, create a similar thread about info all characters are kind of expected to know or be aware of.

    The thing about all this is that it's not meant to be mean spirited on the part of the administration. Yes, you can whine about how things have been wildly inconsistent in the past, but you can't disregard the fact that the Pools are TRYING to get people on the same page now. It's why there's been OOC meetings with city and guild leaderships on guidance and direction of where things are supposed to go: to get people on the same page and keep things relatively within acceptable bounds.

    I've kind of come to view Aetolia's lore and various details and writing and roleplaying within it as something along the lines of the Star Wars Expanded Universe, just to use an example. You have a a big setting with a bunch of people writing their own things within it, and many of those writing within their interpretation of what's 'canon'. However, this world you're writing in? You may have your own stories, your own characters, your own ideas of how things work, but in the end, you're at the whims of what direction the higher ups want to take the universe. You deal with it.

    If lore or other info is introduced that overwrites older lore or changes things? It's a lot like the new Star Wars movies retconning a lot of the old Expanded Universe. Does it suck? Yes. But this is your new framework that you have to work within, and that's always the case with writing within a setting that's not completely of your own making.

    As for claims that it stifles creativity? It really doesn't. You still have a VERY broad framework to work with, and if you can't work with that, I think it says more about you than it does the world. You want YOUR vision EXACTLY as you see it. You want to be able to do whatever you want.

    You can, but you have a frame to work with. And you have to accept that the framework you're working with might change, and you have to be able to adapt to that.
    Leana
  • RazmaelRazmael Posts: 1,093Member, Administrator, Immortal admin
    The absence of lore on a particular matter doesn't confirm one way or another what that lore should actually be.

    One of the biggest problems with basing your argument upon what was acceptable in the older days is that standards in both lore and roleplay were A LOT less defined back then, on both an admin and player level. Over the last few years, we have been working on fleshing out and developing the world of Aetolia. Yes, this sometimes means that your personal character roleplay may be compromised as we settle on how things work. No, this sometimes cannot be avoided, nor is it any sort of personal attack on you.

    It's important that we establish these facts as it helps prevent contradictory lore in the future. No matter what way we go, there's always someone we'll upset with the decision. What if one Grook player decides to roleplay a live birth, but another Grook player roleplays egg laying? They both can't be right, and if someone comes to us and asks us which is right, one of them is going to be mad.

    On the matter of half-breeds, there's actually more implications to this than a lot of people realize and is a small (but still somewhat important) plot point for Aetolia. Why can't Sapience races create half-breeds, when there's evidence of half-breed races (e.g. the haekathi who recently invaded Sapience, known to be half-breeds of the Dreikathi) being made when (certain pairs of) two Albedi races breed? :thinking:

    In any case, outside of extreme circumstances, this isn't something we'll actively police on an admin level. We're not going to pull you aside and say 'hey, change your desc'. And ultimately, once you get to end-game you can still make yourself a catgirl if you want. It's a well known fact I'm a huge fan of catgirls, for what it's worth.
    ZailaErzsebetTeaniKoda
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Posts: 1,835Member ✭✭✭✭✭
    Could just add a caveat in the help races section that people expressing minor mutations isn't unheard of and it pretty much eliminates everyone problems.




    Zaila
  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisPosts: 106Member ✭✭✭
    Shachalai said:

    You are being condescending and hostile to everyone who disagrees with you.

    and yet
    Shachalai said:

    Vyxsis, yes, meaning in general is socially constructed.

    Meaning in a game, however, is arbitrated by its creators and administrators. The current, prevailing stance, explicitly spelled out three years ago, is the one I've cited, and the one most players hold by.

    This stance was created because of a preponderance of mutually contradictory player stances on the subject, and because crossrace characters tended to produce immersion-breaking results that suggested outside concepts, or - in Kaurcer's case - were absurd. Yes, he was a Mhun/Horkval. Yes, that was ridiculous.

    This is something we largely accept, as players, because having rules and standards is a good thing that keeps everyone on the same page. I am explaining this to you - not arguing, explaining - because per admin ruling, the discussion is basically over, it has been for years, and the playerbase has agreed on the present approach.

    You can feel free to keep treating it like a debate, but it's not really one. I suspect you know this, which is why you are performing debate conventions and academic language toward the end of creating that expectation.

    i really strongly object to this, not only because numerous things you're saying are untrue (e.g. the referenced statement does not say half breeds don't exist; meaning in a game is arbitrated by its creators - yes, and in a mud like this, players are co-creators).

    you see nothing condescending about "I am explaining this to you - not arguing, explaining" or attacking my way of engaging for using "debate conventions" and "academic language"?

    if expecting people to actually address points in a disagreement is a "debate convention", then i'm guilty as h*ck. i freakin love debate conventions, apparently, because this one in particular seems to me like a way we can treat our interlocutors with respect. nobody who's known me for a long time would've guessed that i love debate, but i'm glad you've sussed it out and explained my intentions to me.

    and for real, "academic language"? i don't really see myself as using academic language. i'm a 29-year-old disabled college drop-out trying to avoid becoming homeless ever again - not an ivory tower academic. generally, i write more casually than this, yeah, but when i'm trying to think through something, why wouldn't i use ideas and language that i find helpful? d'you think it's somehow contradictory that i don't observe capitalization, use textspeak & other internet shorthand, and yet somehow know about social construction? what's the issue here? like, i don't know what exactly you're trying to get at, but it reads as dismissive, pejorative, condescending.

    you're free to think whatever you want of me, as is everyone, but if you want to play the "who has moral high ground" game, you really ought not draw attention to yourself when this is how you speak to people. just imho.

    /$20
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    You ease yourself out of the Tiger stance.
    You sink back into the menacing stance of the Scorpion.
    Jaymi sinks into the wholly unintimidating stance of the Jaymi.
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    (Research): Cariv says, "Itsa me, Buggio."
  • RazmaelRazmael Posts: 1,093Member, Administrator, Immortal admin
    Going to give this thread a break and close it for a day or two just to let things cool down a bit.
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