Townhall - Future

2

Comments

  • LinLin SMASHER/DEVOURER MASCHINEKLASTMember Posts: 1,560 mod
    I have only one question of note:

    Will we be seeing more of the cult system? For instance, a small number of us are still in the cult of Heva (although actually it might just be me, now), but nothing whatsoever has come out of that. Has this project been dropped?
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia Somewhere in AtticaMember Posts: 475 ✭✭✭✭
    Kalak said:
     For the record I will put forward: - Would you be partial to allow some basic necessities such as a general tutor, bank in Esterport (cuts 3% instead of 2% perhaps as a sinkhole) etc.
    There's already a neutral tutor in the Grand Library - Mauric. Although. I will admit having a bank and a post office in Esterport might be nice. HELBA of all places has those in Albedos.
  • TeaniTeani Evening Sky SwedenMember Posts: 1,854 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Kalak said:


    5. Misc

    - Will you unleash man-eating pumpkins on the world?

    Visit Mannaseh. They sort of exist. Who knows what they do after they strangle you to death, anyway?



  • KodazaKodaza Los AngelesMember Posts: 83 ✭✭✭
    Kalak said:



    - Instead of lesson forgetting cost, they'd be artifacts which makes the necessary changes?
    - For example, in current Sciomancer/Ascendril case, it could be easy to reskin a Sciomancer or Ascendril since it is only Sciomancy with part of skills which expressly mentions shadow needs to be changed, since Air and Earth are element stuff. Would it be feasible for all classes?


    Re: the first point, I'm not sure what you mean? If we measure lost lessons in credit value, then instead of spending credits on lessons to lose class, you want to spend lessons on an artifact that lets you lose a class? How is this different? Or do you mean paying a hefty upfront cost in exchange for being able to freely lose classes from then on?

    Re: the bolded section, it's... actually much more involved than that? The "element stuff" is not separate from the Shadow/Spirit stuff. There's a lore on why Ascendril can't use Earth and Sciomancers can't use Water, for example. You couldn't keep using Air and Earth with no connection to Shadow, so it's not as vanilla a reskin as you think it is.
  • SatomiSatomi Member Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    I actually thought about this after reading the entire post that reskinned classes reside in.

    @kodaza The best way to make it work, imo, is by making the skills weaker without the hard connection that being in the tether provides. That way, it'd let people still be able to function, but would make true transitions more appealing because you wouldn't be handicapped.

    Also, don't forget, you guys can pause your classes when you tether swap. If Tomi, for whatever reason, joined Duiran, I feel it'd be more cost effective for me to just put all 6 of my shadow classes on hold and play as neutral classes until the day I rejoined the Shadow (if it ever comes). They did that specifically for people like me, I feel, who would have a literal heart attack at having to give up (6 x 900 / 2) credits.

    I also want to re-prompt for ideas/teasers as to whether Scio/Asc changes may happen in the future at some point, and what direction you, @tiur, have in mind for them. Mind you, I'm just asking for a "I'd like this, even if it never happens" sort of response. No hard commitments, just hype :P

    KodazaEowyn
  • KodazaKodaza Los AngelesMember Posts: 83 ✭✭✭
    I would have thought asking specifically about the mage rework comes awfully close to asking for a timeline and dates and such? I don't think we're getting any answers there, so we don't get over-hyped too soon. That said.

    ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ SUMMON MAGE REWORK ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
  • SatomiSatomi Member Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    Oh, I'm not asking for timelines or dates, I'm just asking for a gut idea of something Tiur would find cool, whether it involves summoning unicorns and riding off into the sunset for Ascendril while Sciomancers get the ability to go on space adventures and become Nanoseers or some nonsense.

    I like ideas >.>

    KodazaArbre
  • TiurTiur Producer Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 280 admin
    *furiously scribbles out previous plans, replaces with Nanoseers*
    VashSatomi
  • RijettaRijetta Nowhere ImportantMember Posts: 49 ✭✭✭
    Could a talking point be about how badly we want Nanoseers to not be in Aetolia?

    (I'd prefer BEAST).

    To stay on-topic: I'd really like to bump @Kalak and his proposed talking point of the alleged barrier to PvP, and your thoughts on the matter -- not even just the crown, but what you see generally as the difficulties (or lack thereof) of getting into PK on Aetolia, and ways that you and your team can help alleviate those -- and then ways that we, as players, can do so as well.
    A low, sultry voice resounds within the depths of your mind, "I look forward to seeing your descent."
  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 180 ✭✭✭
    Kalak said:

    1. PvP and Barriers

    - Currently one of the matters with PvP is that it is very skillset/arti intensive on 1 vs 1. Will you be taking steps to alleviate some parts of the power creep? For example; there will be any action towards the dreaded Equilibrium Crown?
    - Ylem Aura and PvP Rules. Will there be a revision upon them or you are satisfied with how they are?

    2. Roguery

    I know this is not a favourite topic of many because organizational stuff should be endorsed and such. But that is one of the point of interests to me because mercenary, bandit, pirate, freeblade, sellsword, vagabond roles being absent from a dark fantasy game appears a bit awkward to me. For the record I will put forward:

    - Would you be partial to allow some basic necessities such as a general tutor, bank in Esterport (cuts 3% instead of 2% perhaps as a sinkhole) etc.
    - Would you allow limited forms of interacting with the Ylem or Refining Skillset? Or should it remain as a deadweight/non-option without cities?
    - What is your view on conflicts caused by rogues?

    I completely disagree that there's any real barrier to PvP nor that there is a power creep in regards to PvP. Reason being is because there have been many people who have been successful at PvP without any artifacts because they actually understood it. They understood combat theory, they understood affliction priorities, they understood curing priorities, they understood how to code, they understood so many various things that made them successful. One very key person who didn't really have any artifacts was Draiman, and he would kick everyone's asses up and down the street, ten times over before you killed him. Your inability to PK does not come from a lack of artifacts, it comes from a lack of experience and knowledge in being able to fight.

    Secondly, there is no power creep. You either learn how to fight, or you don't. Simple as that. If someone suddenly becomes a very hard person to beat in a fight its because they either a) learned they're class and everything therein like the back of their hand or b) paid for an offensive system. So this is just a myth that there's a power creep and a barrier to PvP.

    Sure, the EQ crown is annoying, but you don't NEED it to be viable in PK, even for EQ classes. You can always just make sure you are eq-enhanced with your augment points and you'll be fine. This is a hot topic of debate among many people that bounces from both sides of yes/no... but I don't foresee the admin doing a complete refund of EQ Crown with how long its been in the game and the fact that EQ classes are actually based around EQ crown being owned.

    Thirdly, Ylem aura and PVP rules are fine as is. The ylem aura stops others from griefing other people just for participating. For example, there have been lessers/minors where newbies go and do them... if we were allowed to PK them just because they were doing them, you'd lose a lot of players in the long run or no one would ever want to do them. Simple as that. Same goes for PvP rules. Your actions have consequences.


    As far as Roguery goes, I'm not so sure that it would be conducive to the game to enable rogues because as a rogue, you inherently accept that you don't have access to a large portion of the game and rp accordingly. If you could choose to be rogue and do whatever, your game play would be filled with so much grief that you'd quit the game. Especially if you were a Templar/Sentinel who started helping out the darkie side because they paid you. You sacrifice large portions of mechanical advantages just to be a rogue. Again.. your choices have consequences. Removing the consequences because you want a safety net doesn't help the game at all... it'll only hinder it and remove any sort of negative repercussions for your choices.

    This is all just my two cents, I'm not quite sure how the admin team feels about it, but we'll see what happens.

    KodazaDidi
  • RurthinaRurthina SpinesreachMember Posts: 2
    TOPICS
    (and what questions I'd be likely to ask)

    1. Spirit Tether -
    As of late, it appears that the lifer's participation has waned. Without giving away any big secrets, what are the future plans to breathe new life into these two cities and/or their guilds/classes?

    2. Future Events -
    Do we have any events forthcoming in the near future? The most recent Sapience wide event kept us on our toes, kept us engaged, and was quite entertaining and interesting.

    3. Leadership lead events -
    This may already exist, but is there a venue that city or guild leaders can approach the pools with ideas for internal events and obtain approval from the divine and assistance with some of the flavor that a mortal player may not be able to create?

    4. Exploration -
    As noted by @Jaymi already, are there plans on cleaning up the areas with obvious problems with either unreachable rooms or broken trigger manipulations? What can we do to assist you? I hate filling up the bugs queue, but if that's OK with the Pools, I can. At a minimum give you some areas to focus on, based on my atlas, combined with a study of the Aetolian map in comparison to my player created map.

    5. Kitsune -
    Do we have a potential time frame for release?
    Vash
  • KodazaKodaza Los AngelesMember Posts: 83 ✭✭✭
    Secondly, there is no power creep. [. . .] Sure, the EQ crown is annoying, but [. . .] I don't foresee the admin doing a complete refund of EQ Crown with how long its been in the game and the fact that EQ classes are actually based around EQ crown being owned.
    At the risk of derailing the thread utterly: this is the literal definition of power creep.
  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 151 ✭✭✭
    @Rhyot You possibly got my meaning of power creep wrong and resorted to "Git gud". When I mention PvP barrier you should look from several different aspects. Group PvP could be said to have no barrier at all, since it is take whatever you have and go forward tactic. To be able to provide a full-offensive:

    - You have to get all class skillsets. Some classes may offer exceptions, but at the presence of tons of passive curing it is imperative that your offense should be full.
    - Endgame advantages add a level of power creep, so you either have those advantages or not.
    - If you are not having the necessary cure advantages of Survival and RNG advantage of Avoidance, you will get a harder time.
    - Good luck with having no audit skills, certain PvE places will mow you down. And you will go down so fast against damage.
    - Relics/Artifacts do not make someone a combatant, but they make a combatant far far better. In the hands of non-combatants they offer better chances of survival and escape.
    - Coding knowledge is a part of power creep, because paying for offensive system or creating one is a barrier within itself. You need to track afflictions? You have to get an affliction tracker or write one. They all add overhead costs and that raises the barrier.
    - Eq-enhancement means 6% less mana/health, meaning it is a trade-off rather then cheap stuff. Eq-crown will still remain as a 850cr necessity over there. 7% speed bump may seem smaller, but it is an advantage. Advantages pile up and up, hence the power creep starts. I do not expect its removal and full-refund but the bad fruit is there. Asking if there is something to do.
    - Ylem stuff, also add additional PvP necessity. Small advantages of course, but they help.

    Now do not get me wrong, I have PvPed successfully in various games without a problem. I did not write this because I ail from one problem or another or I need to "Git gud". But when I make comparison it is blatant that in Aetolia you need far more to stand a chance and have options.
    Kodaza
  • KodazaKodaza Los AngelesMember Posts: 83 ✭✭✭
    edited July 26
    Kalak said:


    - You have to get all class skillsets.
    - Endgame advantages
    - the necessary cure advantages of Survival and RNG advantage of Avoidance
    - Good luck with having no audit skills
    - Coding knowledge

    Continuing my derail: none of these are power creep. Barriers for entry, yes, but that's not the same thing.

    Ylem advantages are a good example, though, you're right there. They may be small advantages, but even if two combatants have the exact same research perks, the power level of the fight has still been elevated by their presence.

    EDIT: Endgame races might be another example as well, actually, recalling something @Toz said off-hand about them being much more common now than they used to be. I don't know what the game was like before they were introduced, or what made them easier to get.
    Post edited by Kodaza on
  • SatomiSatomi Member Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    edited July 26
    @Kalak Power Creep has so many definitions but google takes the one that is described in Hearthstone, which seems to be generally accepted by most of the games that describe it.

    The definition provided by these sources states that it is the items/options in a game becoming obsolete as new content is released, because that new content has more 'power' than the previous content. Example? I buy the EQ crown for it's speed buff. It cost me 850 credits. After a year of having that power, they release another item that renders the EQ crown useless, and I am forced to buy the new item just to compete at the same levels I was competing at with the EQ crown.

    It's more blatant in mobas, where the release of a champion makes other options of a similar style useless because the power of the newly released champ is at levels considered OP (so people buy it and revenue continues to flow).

    By that definition, Aetolia has 0 power creep.

    That said, it is generally accepted/agreed that Aetolia DOES have an entry barrier that must be scaled before you can compete at medium to high levels.

  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 151 ✭✭✭
    edited July 26
    Kodaza said:

    Kalak said:


    - You have to get all class skillsets.
    - Endgame advantages
    - the necessary cure advantages of Survival and RNG advantage of Avoidance
    - Good luck with having no audit skills
    - Coding knowledge

    Continuing my derail: none of these are power creep. Barriers for entry, yes, but that's not the same thing.

    Ylem advantages are a good example, though, you're right there. They may be small advantages, but even if two combatants have the exact same research perks, the power level of the fight has still been elevated by their presence.
    Also @Satomi

    Right, use of the term "power creep" was not proper. Arms race, high entry level, necessities etc etc. Ultimately call it X, Y or Z; I refer to things which raise the barrier.

    @Phoenecia I always found it weird that Esterport lacked a bank and post office as the most bustling trading city in the continent. One would think that pile of gold would attract some attention!

    To get back to Town Hall stuff, now on Mage hype:

    - I always found (perhaps masochistically) the supportive role of the Mages via Crystalism as an attraction point to the class itself. Will you be allowing it to remain (or something similar to it) within the new form of Mages?
    Kodaza
  • SatomiSatomi Member Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    @Kodaza When I was a Lv. 82 Teradrim with one trans skill, one mythical skill, and an expert skill, every time I killed an endgame race player in a duel I would exult, brag, flaunt, and basically strut up and down the halls of Bloodloch. It got to the point where I was quite literally telling the Bloodloch Warden to go stuff it while I killed people in the city. I felt unstoppable.

    Now I'm one of them... they're everywhere... -hiss-paranoia-darting eyes-

    To more solidly add to what you said about that, though, way back in the day being an endgame player was something that you strove for. Why? You literally got a free boost to audit + a free affliction cure. Those are massive in combat. It was a chore, though, and it wasn't something I'd say "Oh, I'm just doing that in my spare time." I had to dedicate time to bashing. So much so that I had admins asking me if I was auto-bashing or afk-bashing (while I was bashing half asleep with a trigger that just hit my attack button whenever I got balance)

    I suppose this all ties into a vague question about your intent on the future state of bashing, and whether endgame races will be diversified/expanded on further? Yeah. Lets go with that.

  • RunasRunas Member Posts: 81 ✭✭✭
    @Lin I'm still in the cult too, anxiously awaiting the orders I was supposed to do for the thing, that I was asked to do.

    Being vague on purpose. AAAAH MORE CULT STUFF
    The Divine voice of Tiur echoes in your head, "You know better than that. Bad."
    A telekinetic newspaper swats your nose.
    Vash
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ehh... I think some of you are confusing the barrier of entry for PK with Aetolia's META. There's a distinct difference between the two as the former details the starting point of participation in order to play and the latter details the "Most Effective Tactic Available" in order to win / be on top.

    Generally speaking, the barrier of entry for PK requires that you have equipment or some kind of attack/utility skill learned and supplies. The only other thing you'd need then is the motivation and desire to participate at all and thus the cost of entry is relatively low. Don't believe so? Consider a new player with a web tattoo or bash attack participating in a team fight. How many logs have we seen in the past of new players/characters getting 5-30 levels after getting a kill in a leyline fight?

    The META fluctuates depending on the class flavor of the month usually as things get buffed/nerfed and whatever or whoever is reigning as king of deathsight. In order to be competitive in the current META, you are usually required to be endgame, at least transcendent with your class but ideally omni-trans, have a thorough understanding of combat, and have some form of system in place (or I guess not so much anymore since FirstAid has been upgraded from what I'm told.).

    If anything, I don't believe the game offers enough applicable material in learning how to PK as you progress through the game. The game's intro teaches how balances and certain items work which is great. But beyond that? Not much. You aren't really introduced to afflictions or kill conditions or complex curing outside what other players are willing to teach you. This kind of goes back to PvE largely being restricted to 1-3 skills, where you aren't really encouraged to learn as a player what your other skills do and how best to use them. Because of this module, there's this vast and steep learning curve within the community that continuously generates a huge disparity in population between the tiers of skill level among combatants.

    PK_Graph
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    KodazaVashKelliara
  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 180 ✭✭✭
    edited July 26

    - You have to get all class skillsets. Some classes may offer exceptions, but at the presence of tons of passive curing it is imperative that your offense should be full.
    - Endgame advantages add a level of power creep, so you either have those advantages or not.
    - If you are not having the necessary cure advantages of Survival and RNG advantage of Avoidance, you will get a harder time.
    - Good luck with having no audit skills, certain PvE places will mow you down. And you will go down so fast against damage.
    - Relics/Artifacts do not make someone a combatant, but they make a combatant far far better. In the hands of non-combatants they offer better chances of survival and escape.
    - Coding knowledge is a part of power creep, because paying for offensive system or creating one is a barrier within itself. You need to track afflictions? You have to get an affliction tracker or write one. They all add overhead costs and that raises the barrier.
    - Eq-enhancement means 6% less mana/health, meaning it is a trade-off rather then cheap stuff. Eq-crown will still remain as a 850cr necessity over there. 7% speed bump may seem smaller, but it is an advantage. Advantages pile up and up, hence the power creep starts. I do not expect its removal and full-refund but the bad fruit is there. Asking if there is something to do.
    - Ylem stuff, also add additional PvP necessity. Small advantages of course, but they help.

    Now do not get me wrong, I have PvPed successfully in various games without a problem. I did not write this because I ail from one problem or another or I need to "Git gud". But when I make comparison it is blatant that in Aetolia you need far more to stand a chance and have options.
    NOT REMOTELY BARRIERS
    -Class skillsets: This is not a barrier. Its intentional. Under no circumstances should some novice with 0 investment into his skillsets be able to successfully compete with an Omni-trans fighter and win. That's just retarded. So of course, you need to learn your skills to be able to fight. Just like you need to learn to crawl before you can walk.
    -Endgame advantages: Not really an advantage when getting to level 100 is stupid easy and most every fighter has achieved this. It's become a standard, a requirement. Something you NEED to be competitive. Also, not a barrier.
    -Cure advantages: There is no cure advantage. Sure, some classes have more passives than others, and some have more actives than others. This is by design. Its intentional that some classes don't do so well against others, but perform superbly against some. IE: Shaman v Prae.
    - Relic/Artifacts: Artifacts ~= Barrier/Combat ability. If the person is already a good combatant, yes this might make them a little better, but that's not a barrier. That's an amplification of the person and their ability to fight.
    -Eq enhancement: This is not a barrier because damage scales based off your health. So to argue that you have 6% less health isn't a real argument for this because you still take the same amount of damage. If you take 10% damage at 6500 health, you still only take 10% damage at 4500 health. Furthermore, everyone has access to this enhancement. Literally EVERYONE. You just have to put in some time/effort into getting level 100, which isn't wholly difficult, especially with all the xp buffs we have now. EQ crown is not as much of an advantage as you are making it out to be, its just annoying because you just might want to have it to perform at PEAK operability. This is not a power creep nor a barrier.
    - Ylem stuff: This has almost no barrier to PVP because again, EVERYONE has access to it. To be a barrier, it means it needs to be something that I have that you don't have or that is really hard for you to get. If you already have access to it, it's not a barrier.


    POSSIBLE BARRIERS
    - Audit skills: There are miniskills that only cost like 600-700 lessons to trans out and provide a significant amount to audit. While this may be a barrier to mitigate damage, it is in no way stopping you from competing. Yes, you might be easier to be killed through specific types of damage, but you can still be venom locked and killed as well.
    - Coding knowledge: THIS is arguably the most barrier like thing for PVP out of ALL of the arguments. Reason being is because not everyone is good at it. However, this has no power creep. The Firstaid system is available for everyone and is modifiable by EVERYONE. Additionally, it's always being updated to make it better. People help out everyone else to make their use of Firstaid better as well. An affliction tracker, limb tracker, resto tracker.... all of that can be obtained through hard work, coding, and quite possibly the free systems that are already out there WHICH IS AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE. The only thing I see the coding argument about is because everyone wants an instant top tier killscript written by the admins so that people can instantly win at everything they do. PVP/Coding is not for everyone. So if anything is a barrier, its going to be coding. And that's an acceptable barrier because it forces people to learn something more than just the bare minimum. This is not WoW or LoL where you can faceroll your keyboard and win the game. This is Aetolia, a text based game built off intensive coding and that coding translates to an actual requirement on the player.


    TLDR; The only true barrier to PVP is the ability to know how to code an offense and understand combat theory. Everything else is accessible by everyone after a little bit of hard work.

    SatomiKodazaVashTeani
  • TeaniTeani Evening Sky SwedenMember Posts: 1,854 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd just like to point out that I like the list as it is right now, @Tiur. I'm interested in seeing your take on all the things mentioned there. :smile:



  • SatomiSatomi Member Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    edited July 26
    @Haven It's why I specifically stated 'mid to high level'. Material cost isn't a barrier of entry, because anyone can make an alias and spam it in group fights. Learning combat theory, figuring out affliction routes, and coding an offense making use of that knowledge is a massive barrier. (not to mention motivating yourself to die hundreds of times to perfect your stuff and understand other classes)

    Of course, this all revolves around 1v1 fighting. @Rhyot sums it up quite nicely.

  • KynaKyna Victoria, AustraliaMember, Immortal Posts: 129 Immortal
    Hey guys! Just a general reminder this is the thread to post your questions/concerns/interests for the Townhall. Not a board for discussing the entry level for PvP or any conflicting opinions therein. 

    I do encourage you make another thread for your friendly debate, if you'd like! But let's not encourage @Tiur wrath for exploding people because his thread for you guys got derailed. 
    KodazaRhyotTiurTeani
  • SivekuiSivekui Member Posts: 77 ✭✭
    -Misc - I would love to see address the Comms/Gold in Aetolia at present as currently its total wack. How is a novice suppose to get (Average) 20k just for 2k one ONE type of pill? The only way this is doable if the person spends most of the time on Aetolia doing the guest.

    On average you need 400 of one type of pill, and then you do need the 2000 anabiotic, which is a great amount of gold for a novice to gain, (even hard for an endgamer)

    Also, Comms, once city is out of comms they have no way to regain them so in a few weeks when Cities are all out the prices are going to increase.

    ++ Also just thought of this while writing the above, Are certain classes Admin know are broken/useless in PK ever going to be fixed and able to use once again in combat? I know classleads are suppose to fix those classes but with the lack of people around, or does them I dont think it'll ever happen that way.

    Those are the main things I'd love to hear feedback on.
    MayhemHunting - Discord Chat - CLANHELP MAY (ingame)

  • TiurTiur Producer Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 280 admin
    Thank goodness for @Kyna . I was about to get all explodey. I'll be updating the questions and such in a bit.
  • TiurTiur Producer Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 280 admin
    Updated and such. I think we're reaching a point where we're pretty agreed on topics. We just need to hammer out the set questions, leaving room for organic talk.

    Next question: Townhall style in game, or since so much is predone, Twitch?

    Other question: What broken classes? I mean, Cabalist was broken, but that's fixed.
  • XavinXavin Member Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Tiur Twitch wouldn't be terrible! It could be fun.

    EowynRunas
  • KodaKoda Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭
    Is Twitch recorded/saved to be able to be watched at a later point? Definitely that if that's the case, unless you're going to pay bribe throw wenches at @Antehe to transcribe the video.
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    in game seems best I feel like you'll lose a lot of the potential audience if it's outside of the game/text format.




    ArbreTeaniLin
  • AnteheAntehe Member, Immortal Posts: 385 Immortal
    I'm only transcribing if I can interject my own commentary.
    KodaPazradym
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