Tone of Aetolia

TinaTina Member, Guildmaster Posts: 63 ✭✭✭
I've played aetolia almost since it was created, and I've played all of the other IRE games as well. It was always aetolia that drew me back though. I'm sure some of this is just nostalgia tinting my views a bit, but originally this was the dark game. Darker tones, darker themes, the midnight age. This was the gothic game. It had a distinctly different tone than the rest of IRE and I think it's what kept drawing me back.

Now this didn't give an advantage to the evil or bad guys in the game over the good guys. It was more of an even when you win, you still lose thing. Every step forward risked two steps back most of the time. We didn't get happy endings. They were dark, but full of emotion and passion and I think it's what drived so much RP here and how we became known as the RP capital of the IRE games. That gothic environment promoted and reinforced it so much. Swept you up and made you want to be part of it, it was almost impossible to get by without doing deep RP.

For a while now that gothic tone seemed to have been toned down instead of the game's tone, the midnight age theme, to a minor role that occasionally happens, and it's become more a typical high fantasy story with happy endings and big fights and magic, and not the emotional darkness that used to be there. The various subtle grey areas that fluctuated in organizations becoming more flat and standard. I miss that aspect of the game, when it was the game all around you. The shift of focus has also led to more people I think identifying themselves as the good guys, and less real villains for people to fight besides what the admin provide us.

I was wondering other people's thoughts on the matter, especially long term players who remember what it was like way back then. Do you think the game has shifted away from the midnight age, the gothic themes? If so, did you enjoy things more with those darker tones, or do you like it more now? Would like to pick some brains, gather some thoughts, and see if maybe I'm the only one that feels like this or not.
RhoynnPhendegwen
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Comments

  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher Member Posts: 1,808 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is a tough topic to discuss for many reasons.  Aetolia has changed a lot over the years for many reasons.  Our playerbase has gotten older, true newbs are not common, risk vs reward has changed, game side and player systems have become commonplace over manual and individual code, class tethered balancing, removal of griefy or perceived griefy conflict systems, streamlining and standardization of guild ranks, the push towards city centric gameplay, the over time lore changes to separate us from archaea, and the countless other things are going to make this a nightmare to talk about.

    Some people are going to wear rose tinted glasses, some use anecdotal reasoning, and strawman arguments to discuss the pros and cons to how things are vs they used to be.
    image
  • TiurTiur Producer Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 280 admin
    I've heard it expressed that pyrrhic victories got old, and the tone has shifted slowly away from them. For instance, my list of 'top Aetolian desires' has 'a real victory for the Spirit side without pyrrhic costs' on it. In addition, Albedos doesn't feel as Gothic. Previous producers saw it a bit as steampunk.

    What I'm saying is that I will enjoy this thread, but be careful what you wish for.
    LinRasani
  • AxiusAxius where I amMember Posts: 166 ✭✭✭
    I come back to Aetolia as commonly as I've come back to IRE Muds in general. Been playing for ten years now, give or take a few months, and I gotta say.. I think the events need to have a balance. There must be pyrhhic victories as well as total victories and losses for both sides. We also need to get rid of this 'I always need to win' concept that seems to have become deeply rooted into the common mentality of the playerbase. But all in all? Aetolia's the one that I can say I've invested the most time into.. and that's with me playing MKO for 2-3 years, Achaea for the first year or two, Lusternia for a year maybe, and Imperian for about six months. The rest of that time has been entirely Aetolia. But aside from that. Yes. There must be victories that aren't so happy, or else everyone just starts getting bored.

    Example: An event similar to the Orrery, but there must be a balance, On one hand, if you raise it to max rank, that means your enemies are less likely to be able to take it away from you -BUT-, if you go for max filling up, the corruptive effect of mixing both shadow and spirit as is necessary, causes some effects upon the outcome. Say... Rank 1-3 you get minor to mild benefits, but rank 4-5 you get major benefits, but in exchange for 4-5, you have to suffer some drawbacks. Say... we did this with Ylem, ranks 1-3, your city's ylem powers are boosted a little, say..5-15% respectively. Rank 4 gets you 25%, and rank 5 gives you 50%, but if you push to rank 4, you end up with your powers costing maybe 50% more, and if you push to rank 5, your city ylem powers double in cost as the orrery boost is overloaded and the balance of shadow essence is 'siphoning' some of the ylem essence away.

    As a pvp event idea, anyways.

    While things like..say.. well. How about that recent event that ended up releasing a new Bloom plague. Sapience won, but also failed to realize the folly of what was really going on. Single-minded doggedness resulted in spreading the Bloom once more. This wasn't a pyrrhic victory, but it wasn't a total victory either. This was a silver-cloud lined with darkness.

    I think we need to balance everything to be like a rolling storm across plains. There's gonna be godrays of pure victory and sunlight to shine through, there are going to be stormy dark days of pure victory for the shadow, and sometimes.. sometimes there are gonna be lightning storms that set those plains ablaze, and tornados that rend the earth, but rend the clouds away in turn. These are the victories that are more a grey area. The day was won, but at what cost? I think that we should drift more towards a middle ground. Have the total victories for both sides, just as much as there are pyrrhic and grey victories in turn.
    PazradymRhoynn
  • KodaKoda Member Posts: 91 ✭✭✭
    If we're throwing the nostalgia shades on and discussing features, I'm still waiting for our revamped Ciem to come back :(
    LeharLinTenshyo
  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 151 ✭✭✭
    I will talk about a bit of villainy and gameworld.

    One of my assessments is that Instutionalized PvP and Draconian PvP rules really contributes to the feeling that "everything is getting flat and standardized" When you play a dark-fantasy MUD game, you expect the gameworld to be a chaotic and distasteful place outside of your city and safe-spot. You would expect bandits, mercenaries and even player villains who try to further their aims. Now I do not support griefy things which are devoid of RP but all these instutionalization makes people not seek PvP on the "real gameworld" actively. You are a PvP aficionado? Get your 1 vs 1 kick on Sect. You like group PvP? Get your x vs x kick on Lessers/Majors. And there is not even a story, not even a retribution, does not feel like you thwarted a key extraction operation of the other city. It is just eh...a subgame isolated from gameworld. Of course there are odd attempts from time to time, but they are quite rare and on individual basis.

    On the other hand the game cannot provide true villains when there is no permanent loss about one thing or another. It will provide RP villains here and there, but never true villains which will make many characters' face contort in distaste and fear. Now let us say I wished to build a roving band of death cultists...and even gathered enough interested people to tag along, what will guarantee that we would not be issued because well we actually kidnapped the fishing maiden and cut her body into pieces. And no, death cults do not ask for your permission either IC or OOC. Or I wanted to create a mercenary band or a band of merry bandits, it will be easily stomped into ground by game-rules, power-level differences and playerbase into the ground.

    Also I dislike cities and Gods being lumped into de-facto sides by tether...but that is a whole another story.
  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 151 ✭✭✭
    Phoenecia said:



    To address some of Kalak's complaints... There aren't roaming death squads or theft in Aetolia because they get really griefy really fast, and in my experience (recently, I might add) there are players who won't do it for the RP. They do it because they enjoy making others miserable, and I hate to say it, but some players here don't know how to exert self-control or restraint when it comes to stuff like that. When I played Achaea years ago, I was brand new to MUDs. When I started there? Every time I logged in, I'd get PKed or robbed. Not kidding. Every time. I stopped playing after like a month and started on Aetolia instead. The fact that that sort of thing doesn't happen here, I think, is a sort of anti-frustration and anti-griefing measure. You may think it's awesome to be an assassin that's taking a hit on an entire family, but when none of those players have actually done anything wrong? It breeds a feeling of 'screw this, I don't want to play'. 

    Long story short: I don't think Aetolia's tone has changed all that much. It's very much a dark fantasy, but it's not super in your face about it. You have to immerse yourself in it a bit. And I think it's a good way to go about it. A good theme doesn't have to bash you over the head. Think about it. As a player, your character can think the world is good, and safe, but then you start peeling back the layers and seeing it for what it really is. 

    As I said I do not condone or support griefing. While going to the griefy end can be detrimental to the game, it is detrimental to go to the overprotective end as well. Because that takes away from seamlessness of the world. You are right the world of Aetolia is full of gritty and dark themes, but current PvP forms are highly detached from that world. Imagine a character who fought for his city to secure an extraction, but then his attempt was thwarted...uh...city do not care about that stuff because rules, anti-frustration measures etc. As time passes it gets harder to suspend disbelief.

    The main issue is that, event villains and occurrences are predictable while player enemies are not predictable. You know that event will eventually grow and end, but players cannot cope with a player-danger because they will not bend the knee or even try to deal with the situation in a RP fashion when they are on the bad end of the conflict, because they are stubborn OOCly. Of course there are always people who does such things for lols and stuff, but closing gates to such possibilities THIS hard with rules and measures, chokes the game.

    So you will see death cults in events and lore, but not actual death cults by players because it is heavily discouraged. And the more such "We do not care" moments occurs towards PvP, then the immersion side of the game gets damaged. That is my personal view of course. I prefer a world full of dangers, mercenaries and bandits where a portion of that danger is represented by players.
    ZailaEmir
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree to an extent with @Kalak.

    Even when it came to just roleplay and I had a recent stint where my character became somewhat villainous as a result of IC things, I RP'd with someone (who enjoyed these interactions), but others around that character made it absolutely miserable to do so. To the point where I was getting punished mechanically when nothing even really happened. I ditched that arc because it became so unbearable due to these people and it turned me off from RP'ing with them again.

    So yeah, it goes both ways. I'm okay with how Aetolia is. People do forget sometimes that Sapience is pretty crapsack after the War of Night, but the cities themselves have pretty good living conditions, which is why refugees flood into them.
  • PhendegwenPhendegwen Member Posts: 33 ✭✭✭
    I'll concede that I probably am looking at things through the lens of an old player who found the dark and horrible places in the game long ago, and doesn't think about them much now. I can see how a new player would indeed find the atmosphere to still be dark during their exploration phase. But that being said, I'd like to see more being done with these dark and disturbing settings. The big plots can be ok, the War of Night was pretty good as it encouraged a lot of interaction and grouping up, but I'd still like to see more small plots involving the gothic horror aspects of Aetolia. Less social commentary and Albedos-stuff, more tales of murder and weird, disturbing incidents. (And yes, I know a lot of time has been invested into Albedos, but I find it hard to get interested in Albedos-related things. The Albedos gods are just weird but not very interesting, and the steampunk thing is pretty played out. And yes, I play a Kelki who likes gears and stuff. Cause, Kelki. It's still played out, thus why I don't much focus on that ingame these days.)
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia Somewhere in AtticaMember Posts: 475 ✭✭✭✭
    Kalak said:

    As I said I do not condone or support griefing. While going to the griefy end can be detrimental to the game, it is detrimental to go to the overprotective end as well. Because that takes away from seamlessness of the world. You are right the world of Aetolia is full of gritty and dark themes, but current PvP forms are highly detached from that world. Imagine a character who fought for his city to secure an extraction, but then his attempt was thwarted...uh...city do not care about that stuff because rules, anti-frustration measures etc. As time passes it gets harder to suspend disbelief.

    The main issue is that, event villains and occurrences are predictable while player enemies are not predictable. You know that event will eventually grow and end, but players cannot cope with a player-danger because they will not bend the knee or even try to deal with the situation in a RP fashion when they are on the bad end of the conflict, because they are stubborn OOCly. Of course there are always people who does such things for lols and stuff, but closing gates to such possibilities THIS hard with rules and measures, chokes the game.

    So you will see death cults in events and lore, but not actual death cults by players because it is heavily discouraged. And the more such "We do not care" moments occurs towards PvP, then the immersion side of the game gets damaged. That is my personal view of course. I prefer a world full of dangers, mercenaries and bandits where a portion of that danger is represented by players.

    You say you don't condone griefing, but much of what you want makes it so much easier to grief. Give an inch, players take a mile. And in my playing experience, much as I hate to say it, you can't trust players.

    I didn't want to air dirty laundry here, but I'm gonna do it anyway.

    There was a series of incidents recently where someone wanted to engage in assassin RP, and was hired to kill members of a certain group. None of the members of this group had done anything to warrant the killing, and no one even knew what the hell they were being killed for. Said assassin had been known to abuse the 'one-death' rule in the PK guidelines, and frequently would go after people for little to no reason.

    RP and PK aren't completely separate from each other, but if you want to create player death cults, you had better be DAMN good at RPing. RP out your target selection, kidnapping, etc as opposed to just running in, PK, and then leaving the person you killed wondering wtf happened.

    You want a world of dangers where players make up the dangers? Where you can get robbed or PKed at a moment's notice for anything? That was my experience with Achaea, and it's probably still like that, so if that's what you want, well, there you go.
  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 151 ✭✭✭
    Phoenecia said:


    You want a world of dangers where players make up the dangers? Where you can get robbed or PKed at a moment's notice for anything? That was my experience with Achaea, and it's probably still like that, so if that's what you want, well, there you go.

    That kind of "love or leave" attitude really does not help with anything.

    What I try to say is that, a middle ground should be found, even if that might be risking giving an inch.
  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 179 ✭✭✭
    The tone of Aetolia in my opinion is very drab, uneventful, and boring. In both RP and PK. Stale, if you will.

    RP is very boring anymore because most times, its already all drawn out. You already know where you're going. And with most world events, you already know exactly how its going to end. The Bloom? We all knew what was going to happen... So I stayed in my haven for 3 days until the 'cure' was found and then just read the news for the cure, did what I had to and went about my business.

    Roleplay with other players is very boring and uneventful as well. More times than not, I hear talk about people going, "This is what I want to happen." If you're already scouting out the end of your roleplay arc and refuse to accept any deviation, that's no fun. When I roleplayed in Imperian, I just winged it. I roleplayed with almost the entire playerbase and just went with it. THAT was fun. I had no idea who I was going to talk to, what about, what would be said. I had no expectations. And the character that was molded was absolutely fantastic! But here in Aetolia, everything is planned out. And then you have all the cliques and the requirements to join a clique or what you have to do to be recognized. It's a hassle. Its boring. That's why I don't roleplay and that's why I'm outspoken against those who do primarily roleplay. If I'm going to roleplay, I don't want to know where its going to end. I don't want to plan it out. I just want to go with it.

    In regards to PK. It's also very drab and boring. You can't raid without being labeled as a griefer because "Oh no, you're making me do something I don't want to do. Now I can't emote for X time." On top of that, city guards are almost impossible to kill unless you get a group. So city raiding is pointless because people complained that raids were ruining their fun. You can't just jump people anymore because you'll get issued if your only reason is "Because I don't like your face." I'm a vampire, I should be allowed to jump who I want, when I want because I want your blood. Lessers/Majors/Sect/Orrery are all disconnected from the world as a whole. There is no retribution, there is no chance for revenge. You lose at a lesser/major/orrery, well... congrats. You lost. That's it, end of story. Period. Game over. Now go on about your business like it never even happened. Sect is just a place where people can go to 1v1 because they're bored and want to test combat abilities.... without having to worry about the opponent calling in their 50 friends because they're about to die. This has caused the PK scene in Aetolia to pretty much become non-existent.


    I love Aetolia. I would love to help make it better. But we keep instituting more laws, more safety nets, more rules. And players become more and more close minded to just a few individuals around them and we deal with negative repercussions because someone doesn't like the way we roleplayed or they didn't like a specific emote or they didn't like that they were killed. It has left a stale tone to Aetolia in an overall trend.

    RhoynnLinTragerKodaKalakBenedicto
  • TiurTiur Producer Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 280 admin
    I have to apologize, my staff hit me upside the head over Albedos. Albedos should feel gaslight gothic, which is better than steampunk and a logical progression.
    LinVyxsis
  • PhendegwenPhendegwen Member Posts: 33 ✭✭✭
    Being a Lovecraft-obsessive type, the Cthulhu-like thing is what I've been wanting to see from the Albedi gods, as it seems they do have this potential- the reason I called them 'not interesting' is because this does not seem to be an active part of their storyline currently. Atm, it feels like a lot of characters are writing them off as harmless, as there has apparently not been enough active malevolence and alien-ness involved. Muadi was nasty, and Phen's been attempting to explain ICly just how bad these things probably are given this experience + all the solid info he's gathered, but it tends to fall on deaf ears- even to many characters who were around during the Muadi event. Muadi and the others are getting written off as 'justifiably mad', rather than alien beings bent on their own purposes. I understand that the plot is still building up, but please, make them nastier. So far, they're feeling more like a social commentary theme than the Lovecraftian foes they have the potential to be. To convey such a theme properly there needs to be an atmosphere of definite fear/madness/etc.- writing off a Lovecraftian horror should not be an option, even in a dark and screwed-up world.
  • TeaniTeani Evening Sky SwedenMember Posts: 1,854 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree with @Kelliara that it's partly our responsibility to ensure the experience of the game is what we would like. Through the years I've played this game I've heard of and experienced both "good-natured" and griefy conflicts. I think a lot of it also has to do with how we as players perceive things. Our attitude towards it.

    Sure, sometimes we all have a bad day, and can't deal with certain things. That's the way it is, but one has to deal with consequences of that as they come. However, there seems to be a lot more people around these days who cannot stand to lose. This game can't have winners all the time, and it is discouraging to always get the short stick in a conflict. However, there are few ways to set up conflicts that have a way to go back and forth in a somewhat satisfactory way if our attitudes remain the same.

    Through the years, things have changed. At times there have been a lot of people who would cry grief when they had actually stepped into a conflict of their own choice simply to try to get out of it. This prevents a lot of people from engaging in darker-themed conflict because they don't want to deal with the added drama that will come as a result of it.

    Other times there were people around who simply enjoyed causing misery for certain people, for purely OOC reasons. This also prevents people from engaging, because they don't want to run the risk of being called griefers. Sometimes they will be called this even by people who might not even be part of the conflict.

    On a different note, the hard tethering ensures there's no neutrality, but at the same time, it has made it very difficult to blend black and white into certain shades of grey. For instance, no deity will take on followers from the opposite tether, meaning there's no way of playing a truly unreliable character in terms of loyalties.
    - Say I'm a Sentinel, but I also walk the path of Iosyne. Iosyne makes a demand of some kind, and then it's up to me to try to play that out without it being noticed that I'm doing her bidding, because if I do, I might get tossed out from the guild I'm slowly trying to take over.
    - Or if I'm an Archivist, who does the bidding of Damariel, sharing all the intelligence from within the guild with the Order in an attempt to further His influence.
    - Or a Templar being slowly converted by Chakrasul (to pick something familiar that happened in the past! <.<)

    This is by no means a call to open up for neutrality. It's more a call to allow for a different kind of conversion and an added layer of potential RP and conflict.



    Vyxsis
  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 93 ✭✭✭
    i can't comment about this issue in its entirety since i'm a fairly new player (vyxsis having been made in january) who really only plays one character (two others exist/ed but were probably played for less than 4 hours total). however! i do feel like i can comment on something regarding player interactions as they relate to tone, since vyx was a relatively-prominent lifer (assuming being arch-prelate is relatively-prominent, idk, ymmv) who made pretty drastic shift to darkside. my experience has basically been this:

    both sides - but especially lightside - tend to exist and interact primarily with others in the same bubble. with only a couple exceptions (looking at @Dzekk and @Benedicto, primarily, but h*ck even @Karhast that one time), there's been very little in the way of RP with vyxsis that extended beyond trading barbs in tells. sure, calling each other stupid and weak is all well and good, but it lacks much depth. even when i've gone out of my way to try and engage a variety of vyx's former comrades - e.g. randomly appearing places, making mild mischief, etc. - most basically just walk away. aside from those mentioned above, my most sustained interactions seem to've been vyx trying to get things going and being ignored - although, there's also been a small amount of over-the-top hostility with no room to RP at all, but this is actually less of an issue imho since at least that's interaction. this has left me with the perception that there's very little room for cross-side RP, which seems to make it difficult to have any kind of meaningful conflict, emotional investment, or tone consistent with what a number of people here are saying they want. my experience before and my continuing experience is that most lightside folks only really interact with the, for lack of a better word, "fluffier" darkside folks, and again, many do not interact at all. some organizations even explicitly ban such interactions for a significant portion of their membership (for example, the illuminai don't allow "associating" with darkside people until you've passed aiyr qaepa).

    now, let's be super duper clear: i'm not suggesting all of our characters should be best friends or even on friendly terms since that would also be counterproductive to sustaining a dark tone and meaningful conflict. if our characters don't interact and develop meaningful (if adversarial) relationships, though, how can we expect anything other than what we've got at present?

    in any case, maybe my perceptions don't match most others' experiences, or maybe folks aren't RPin' because they just don't like me, idk. just giving my $0.02.
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    You ease yourself out of the Tiger stance.
    You sink back into the menacing stance of the Scorpion.
    Jaymi sinks into the wholly unintimidating stance of the Jaymi.
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    (Research): Cariv says, "Itsa me, Buggio."
    IraeLinKodaBenedicto
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia Somewhere in AtticaMember Posts: 475 ✭✭✭✭
    Vyxsis said:

    i can't comment about this issue in its entirety since i'm a fairly new player (vyxsis having been made in january) who really only plays one character (two others exist/ed but were probably played for less than 4 hours total). however! i do feel like i can comment on something regarding player interactions as they relate to tone, since vyx was a relatively-prominent lifer (assuming being arch-prelate is relatively-prominent, idk, ymmv) who made pretty drastic shift to darkside. my experience has basically been this:

    both sides - but especially lightside - tend to exist and interact primarily with others in the same bubble. with only a couple exceptions (looking at @Dzekk and @Benedicto, primarily, but h*ck even @Karhast that one time), there's been very little in the way of RP with vyxsis that extended beyond trading barbs in tells. sure, calling each other stupid and weak is all well and good, but it lacks much depth. even when i've gone out of my way to try and engage a variety of vyx's former comrades - e.g. randomly appearing places, making mild mischief, etc. - most basically just walk away. aside from those mentioned above, my most sustained interactions seem to've been vyx trying to get things going and being ignored - although, there's also been a small amount of over-the-top hostility with no room to RP at all, but this is actually less of an issue imho since at least that's interaction. this has left me with the perception that there's very little room for cross-side RP, which seems to make it difficult to have any kind of meaningful conflict, emotional investment, or tone consistent with what a number of people here are saying they want. my experience before and my continuing experience is that most lightside folks only really interact with the, for lack of a better word, "fluffier" darkside folks, and again, many do not interact at all. some organizations even explicitly ban such interactions for a significant portion of their membership (for example, the illuminai don't allow "associating" with darkside people until you've passed aiyr qaepa).

    now, let's be super duper clear: i'm not suggesting all of our characters should be best friends or even on friendly terms since that would also be counterproductive to sustaining a dark tone and meaningful conflict. if our characters don't interact and develop meaningful (if adversarial) relationships, though, how can we expect anything other than what we've got at present?

    in any case, maybe my perceptions don't match most others' experiences, or maybe folks aren't RPin' because they just don't like me, idk. just giving my $0.02.

    I dunno what it is you're doing, but I've RPed with darkies quite often, and still do. Even when I was an inch from joining Spinesreach, I still RPed with a lot of light side people. I adore cross-faction RP, and entertain it as often as I can.

    That being said...

    The problem with sustained antagonistic RP is that it can get really annoying or obnoxious really fast if you're not careful. I've had some really good rivalries with dark side characters in the past that were intense, but didn't veer off into annoying or obnoxious.

    If people are just simply walking away from you? You're probably doing something wrong, or did something to deserve shunning. I say this as someone who up until rejoining Duiran and the Sentaari was largely shunned by light side players despite not even being Spirean. If you're Spirean or Lochian, AND you're being super antagonistic? Unless people on the side you left really enjoyed RPing with you before, you're gonna have a tough time of garnering cross-faction RP. If you want rivalry/enemy RP, it requires a much deeper level of understanding of what people are willing to entertain from you, and understanding when you're going too far.

    Unfortunately, most people don't recognize when they're going too far, or don't care, and it's a story I've heard over and over.
  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 93 ✭✭✭
    Phoenecia said:

    Vyxsis said:

    i can't comment about this issue in its entirety since i'm a fairly new player (vyxsis having been made in january) who really only plays one character (two others exist/ed but were probably played for less than 4 hours total). however! i do feel like i can comment on something regarding player interactions as they relate to tone, since vyx was a relatively-prominent lifer (assuming being arch-prelate is relatively-prominent, idk, ymmv) who made pretty drastic shift to darkside. my experience has basically been this:

    both sides - but especially lightside - tend to exist and interact primarily with others in the same bubble. with only a couple exceptions (looking at @Dzekk and @Benedicto, primarily, but h*ck even @Karhast that one time), there's been very little in the way of RP with vyxsis that extended beyond trading barbs in tells. sure, calling each other stupid and weak is all well and good, but it lacks much depth. even when i've gone out of my way to try and engage a variety of vyx's former comrades - e.g. randomly appearing places, making mild mischief, etc. - most basically just walk away. aside from those mentioned above, my most sustained interactions seem to've been vyx trying to get things going and being ignored - although, there's also been a small amount of over-the-top hostility with no room to RP at all, but this is actually less of an issue imho since at least that's interaction. this has left me with the perception that there's very little room for cross-side RP, which seems to make it difficult to have any kind of meaningful conflict, emotional investment, or tone consistent with what a number of people here are saying they want. my experience before and my continuing experience is that most lightside folks only really interact with the, for lack of a better word, "fluffier" darkside folks, and again, many do not interact at all. some organizations even explicitly ban such interactions for a significant portion of their membership (for example, the illuminai don't allow "associating" with darkside people until you've passed aiyr qaepa).

    now, let's be super duper clear: i'm not suggesting all of our characters should be best friends or even on friendly terms since that would also be counterproductive to sustaining a dark tone and meaningful conflict. if our characters don't interact and develop meaningful (if adversarial) relationships, though, how can we expect anything other than what we've got at present?

    in any case, maybe my perceptions don't match most others' experiences, or maybe folks aren't RPin' because they just don't like me, idk. just giving my $0.02.

    I dunno what it is you're doing, but I've RPed with darkies quite often, and still do. Even when I was an inch from joining Spinesreach, I still RPed with a lot of light side people. I adore cross-faction RP, and entertain it as often as I can.

    That being said...

    The problem with sustained antagonistic RP is that it can get really annoying or obnoxious really fast if you're not careful. I've had some really good rivalries with dark side characters in the past that were intense, but didn't veer off into annoying or obnoxious.

    If people are just simply walking away from you? You're probably doing something wrong, or did something to deserve shunning. I say this as someone who up until rejoining Duiran and the Sentaari was largely shunned by light side players despite not even being Spirean. If you're Spirean or Lochian, AND you're being super antagonistic? Unless people on the side you left really enjoyed RPing with you before, you're gonna have a tough time of garnering cross-faction RP. If you want rivalry/enemy RP, it requires a much deeper level of understanding of what people are willing to entertain from you, and understanding when you're going too far.

    Unfortunately, most people don't recognize when they're going too far, or don't care, and it's a story I've heard over and over.
    i mean... maybe? it could be i'm just being a huge jerk and i'm too stupid to recognize it.

    however, i don't really think this is what's going on. i mean, again, ask people like @Dzekk or @Benedicto if their experience RPin' with vyx has been just unbearable.

    my experience on lightside was that speaking to darkside folks was discouraged - both for myself and others. other than poking fun on occasion (which has always been a feature of vyx's character and hadn't really made the RP-well run as dry as it is now), vyx is not really a mean or antagonistic character. she's not going around calling people names, murdering people at complete random, etc. i'm trying not to name names here because it would just be inflammatory, but when i say people just walk away, i mean - e.g. vyx will appear, say hello and make an innocuous introductory comment, and the person will say "I have nothing to say to you. Duanathar." when previously we'd been friendly. sure, i expect some characters to feel hurt or betrayed, but when the vast majority aren't doing anything to express that aside from completely avoiding vyx, it seems to be a little... odd.

    now, again, i focused on discussing my own experience because, well, it's my experience and i don't want to speak for others. that's not to say i haven't heard or observed similar things happening to others, though, and i feel like making the issue entirely about me rather than trying to see the broader issue i'm attempting to describe is a little uncharitable.
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    You ease yourself out of the Tiger stance.
    You sink back into the menacing stance of the Scorpion.
    Jaymi sinks into the wholly unintimidating stance of the Jaymi.
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
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  • ZailaZaila Pacific TimeMember Posts: 261 ✭✭✭✭
    @Vyxsis - I hope this doesn't seem to cross the bounds into forum RP, but I've heard several people ICly/OOCly comment that they've tried to talk to Vyxsis since she switched sides but can't get a word out of her so. I know I attempted to chat with her on several occasions and never heard any reply, so I figured you were doing the "side switch" thing and cutting off communication. So, I'm wondering if you'd just been not noticing lots of tells for awhile after you switched?

    All that said, I couldn't agree more that the lifers are comparatively discouraged from interacting with darkies than darkies are with lifers. As a Syssin, it gave ample excuse and opportunity to chat with 'the other side', but now that I've joined that other side, (aside from not many darkies having anything to say to Zaila) that relative reaching out interaction is frowned upon heavily and viewed with suspicion.

    I think part of the problem with cross-tether interaction is finding a good excuse for our characters to do it without the character actively trying to convert or be converted.
  • TekiasTekias WisconsinMember Posts: 107 ✭✭✭
    I've had no problem, as Tek, going down to Enorian and chatting a bit. He leaves his Shadeling back in Spines, stays as non-threatening as possible...
    Formerly: Spiegel. Eidycue.

    Hi.

    image
  • XavinXavin Member Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sibatti said:

    I would really, really like it if people collectively cooled it on the "don't interact with darkies" mindset (speaking to the Spirit orgs). It's super harmful to the game and it really only encourages people to seek more freedom, wherever they might find it.

    Ultimately, the assumption is that you're going to switch sides if you're in a life-aligned organization and are seen interacting commonly with people on the other side of the game. And yeah, most orgs did away with association laws formally real life years ago but....well, it's often looked at as an informal thing. Yeah, it's not on the help laws X-org anymore but....it's still a mindset.

    ArbreQueni
  • KarhastKarhast EnorianMember Posts: 84 ✭✭✭
    edited May 30
    Sibatti said:

    I would really, really like it if people collectively cooled it on the "don't interact with darkies" mindset (speaking to the Spirit orgs). It's super harmful to the game and it really only encourages people to seek more freedom, wherever they might find it.

    What do you suppose should change to see things cool down even further?

    People who don't literally murder people in the streets can enter either Duiran or Enorian to do as they please, and even getting rid of enemy statuses isn't so hard. Given the direction some orgs are supposed to take, what would you recommend people do beyond the way things already are?
  • ArbreArbre Arbrelina Jolie Member, Guildmaster Posts: 1,999 mod
    @Karhast A RL year and a half ago, I was Duirani. I got chastised and ostracized for spending time FISHING with Toz, who was a Carnifex. I eventually was so miserable that I made my RP excuses (which weren't hard, given the hostile behavior by everyone in Duiran) and left for Spinesreach. Since then, I have never done anything against Duiran or Enorian except for leyline business, and I am very much unwelcome in both cities.

    What can be done to stop this from happening and stop more people from leaving lighters? I don't have much to suggest beyond less hostility, less suspicion, less spying. Have things changed in the last year and a half? Possibly! But I doubt it.
  • LinLin SMASHER/DEVOURER MASCHINEKLASTMember Posts: 1,560 mod
    The dark side honestly is a bit more accepting of cross-tether RP, and almost always has been. Hell, even Lin pops up to Spines on occasion to go drink at @Xenia's bar.
    Kelliara
  • KarhastKarhast EnorianMember Posts: 84 ✭✭✭
    edited May 30
    I like the amount of acceptance we have right now. If there's some large issue with it I'm missing, I'd like knowing about it.

    Edit, because I missed @Arbre 's post:

    That's a fair point, but.. Given that admin literally saw fit to step in to fix Duiran up between then and now, I feel safe to say things have changed.
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