Kagenoshūdō-shi (Shadow Monks)

MegiddoMegiddo MegiddoMember Posts: 16
I believe the Dark side should have a monk class that manipulates the shadow as the Zealots use fire. You have the Sentaari  which is neutral but yet still aide Enorian. Also have other's like myself apprenticed in sentaari. A great Rp could go into this to make a new guild or class even @ Oleis

Comments

  • MegiddoMegiddo MegiddoMember Posts: 16
  • MegiddoMegiddo MegiddoMember Posts: 16
  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 180 ✭✭✭
    While I love the name and concept, this isn't exactly a thing that will happen. Shadow side already has access to Monk as a "neutral class".

    If anything, we need to remove the cost of credits/lessons to apprentice someone in the neutral monk class. There's no reason someone (a darkie) should have to pay an additional 40 credits/200 lessons to get monk just because Lifer side holds the monopoly (Sentaari) on the monk class.

    Fezzix
  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 151 ✭✭✭
    Rhyot said:

    While I love the name and concept, this isn't exactly a thing that will happen. Shadow side already has access to Monk as a "neutral class".

    I desire a similar thing for Sciomancer class as well (a different tertiary instead of Enchantments) to differentiate from Ascendril. While from balance perspective copy/paste classes are healthy, they truly take away from uniqueness and flavor. There is not a skill which makes me say "Yeah, take that, I am a goddamn Sciomancer!" currently.

    But of course, this is all about priorities of the developers. Perhaps...release of werebadgers and werenightingales would be more logical from business perspective.
  • JaymiJaymi Member Posts: 78 ✭✭✭
    Rhyot said:

    If anything, we need to remove the cost of credits/lessons to apprentice someone in the neutral monk class. There's no reason someone (a darkie) should have to pay an additional 40 credits/200 lessons to get monk just because Lifer side holds the monopoly (Sentaari) on the monk class.

    Cool, then we can remove the syssin credit cost too, since shadow side holds the monopoly there! Or maybe they balance each other out so we don't need to remove either cost..?

    This came off far snarkier than I meant it to, I really am okay with either both being removed or both being kept.

    TozFezzixSessizlik
  • MegiddoMegiddo MegiddoMember Posts: 16
    @Rhyot the concept of this rp was to have a monk break off the sentaari seeking ways to mold shadow into monk like how the magi split from ascendril and sciomancers this leaves a rp with unlimited things to do.  So that's why I thought of this.
  • KerrynKerryn The Black Flagon InnMember, Guildmaster Posts: 270 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 27
    Megiddo said:

    @Rhyot the concept of this rp was to have a monk break off the sentaari seeking ways to mold shadow into monk like how the magi split from ascendril and sciomancers this leaves a rp with unlimited things to do.  So that's why I thought of this.

    You'll be happy to know that there already are other Tekura schools one that even strays from Sentaari teaching. In the newly discovered history, it was found that Brachus had three living students. Santi, Grolet and Asura. Each has a different take on Tekura.

    Sentaari teaches Dreshura. Which focuses on imbuing magical energies into cunning blows, just
    like the history has told us. Dreshura people were known to be passionate and contemplative, though
    fairly spiritual compared to the other two forms. Their beliefs tie them more to Duiran and life, than neutrality.

    Santi teaches Tundrol. Which is playful, but Fierce. They see their stances as a flowing system of dance and always feel that they should be moving - unless, obviously, it is time for rest. Any extra time, that is not used for eating or sleeping, is used for trying to further expand their flexibility and stamina. In battle, they prefer to keep a distance until they need to strike a blow. They'd rather change up their form from time to time to confuse their enemy. Their attire tends to be loose, but only to ensure they are able to make fluid motions.

    Asura teaches Lakshasa. Which favor precision/concentrated blow. Lakshasa people are more
    serious and focused. They like to use grappling, pressure points, joint-breaking, and choking to
    take down targets. They do not see in taking any mercy. Death is the only result of combat and is
    not a tool for play. Everything is done to ensure that you can protect yourself and those that
    matter to you. Their extra time is spent in practicing and honing their skills, never any time to
    goof off. Whatever time is available for recovery is only for recovery, not for studying into
    anything extra.

    *Above descriptions of the various schools c/p'ed from the history book given to us by Grolet.

    Santi and Asura are more 'neutral' in teaching. But both tie back into Brachus. So, there are already avenues for darkie monasteries/schools to pop up. It has been tried in the past with a clan for darkie monks, but I've no idea what happened to it. So, while it may not be a 'shadow' monk in the essence of another guild/class as you want. You have options to rp a dark monk.

    Also, I believe @Oleis mentioned that eventually all classes would be taught by an npc, thus... no lesson difference between a guilded or nonguilded person apprenticing you. Although, I may have misunderstood Oleis or plans may have changed, he can better clarify that.
    Post edited by Kerryn on

    Megiddo
  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 151 ✭✭✭
    Oleis said:


    Unfortunately, posting things like this on the forums guarantees that they cannot be made. We've run into situations on other IRE games where tentative plans we had for a feature had to be altered to avoid any potential claim of intellectual property theft. I'd definitely encourage you all to share class ideas with each other and talk about what might be cool for Aetolia, since the core idea might help us gauge your wants and preferences, but we can't actually build anything submitted to us by players.

    Actually the very reason we submit sometimes detailed, sometimes not-so-detailed ideas is to jumpstart a discussion about "what might be cool for Aetolia" But I do definitely understand the need for extra care regarding IP issues.

    Though this statement also discouraged me from expressing detailed ideas, just now D:
    Zaila
  • FezzixFezzix Member Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    Don't let people pick up syssin for free. Same goes for monks.

    And if they give shadow tether a default tekura class, they'll need to give spirit tether folks another class to balance the scales. You can't have uneven number of classes on either side.
    Jaymi
  • TiurTiur Producer Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 280 admin
    @Oleis I totally told him to put it on the forum, cough cough. I think in this light form it's not considered IP, but, I dunno.. what's the alternative?
  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher Member Posts: 1,808 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oleis said:

    Plans in terms of class tutors are subject to change given @Tiur's new reign as our Supreme Leader.

    To speak to @Megiddo, though, as this was his bitchin' cool class concept: Unfortunately, posting things like this on the forums guarantees that they cannot be made. We've run into situations on other IRE games where tentative plans we had for a feature had to be altered to avoid any potential claim of intellectual property theft. I'd definitely encourage you all to share class ideas with each other and talk about what might be cool for Aetolia, since the core idea might help us gauge your wants and preferences, but we can't actually build anything submitted to us by players.

    Hope this helps, and sorry for the bummer!

    I did not know that. Definitely a bummer, but I get it.
    image
    MegiddoHaven
  • KodaKoda Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭
    Curious about that IP thing - how's that work with something like the artifact ideas thread that's previously been used in the past? Or is there somewhat of a scale to it?
  • OleisOleis Producer Emeritus Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 1,393 admin
    The way I've had it described to me in the past is that artifact ideas represent a direct feature request, like asking the guy in the restaurant kitchen to whip up something special for you. They'll do it for other folks, but they're probably not going to advertise it on the sign out front. Class schematics are like planning an entire menu for the restaurant, which they'll then spin into months of profit.

    That said, @Tiur was not wrong to direct you here, and I really don't want to discourage input and suggestions in that vein. Because IP caselaw is so nebulous and we're dealing with a bunch of international jurisdictions, there's no telling when we might run afoul of one thing or be safe in another. I just wanted to make sure you guys understood our messy relationship with these class design documents, since one tends to pop up every few months either on forums or in email.
    You say to Slyphe, "You're so freaking smart."
    [---]
    "^," Slyphe agrees with you.
    Koda
  • KelliaraKelliara Member Posts: 469 ✭✭✭✭
    Another possibility along this line is to simply create tether-locked specialisations, akin to Shapeshifter types.

    Shadow monk gets a few fancy new abilities, and loses a few. Same for Spirit monk.

    Keeps everything fair, and still adds a bit of tethery flavour.
    Now with 253% more Madness.
    Chibi-Kelli by @Eleanor.
    Megiddo
  • JaymiJaymi Member Posts: 78 ✭✭✭
    Fezzix said:

    Don't let people pick up syssin for free. Same goes for monks.

    And if they give shadow tether a default tekura class, they'll need to give spirit tether folks another class to balance the scales. You can't have uneven number of classes on either side.

    I'll totes take a light class syssin and you all can take your syssin back

    FezzixZaila
  • LinLin SMASHER/DEVOURER MASCHINEKLASTMember Posts: 1,560 mod
    Why do these always have Japanese names.
    Koda
  • MegiddoMegiddo MegiddoMember Posts: 16
    I understand @Oleis your hands are tied with this was just throwing an Idea out. I known other games where there is shadow monks but in the same mind your taking off of other games such like d&d with any of the classes. I agree with kelliara just switch up the skills a little make it your own. In sapience Megiddo is searching for a darker path as he is monk. Though he may try to influence others in same like of mind. Though Syvelium was a NPC that started the city Shalom and such why can't a player have same thought. 
  • MegiddoMegiddo MegiddoMember Posts: 16
    @Lin Japanese is 
    what makes a class sound cool in my eyes that's why I wrote out the Japanese spelling for monk of shadows
  • MegiddoMegiddo MegiddoMember Posts: 16
    You'll be happy to know that there already are other Tekura schools one that even strays from Sentaari teaching. In the newly discovered history, it was found that Brachus had three living students. Santi, Grolet and Asura. Each has a different take on Tekura.

    Sentaari teaches Dreshura. Which focuses on imbuing magical energies into cunning blows, just 
    like the history has told us. Dreshura people were known to be passionate and contemplative, though 
    fairly spiritual compared to the other two forms. Their beliefs tie them more to Duiran and life, than neutrality.

    Santi teaches Tundrol. Which is playful, but Fierce. They see their stances as a flowing system of dance and always feel that they should be moving - unless, obviously, it is time for rest. Any extra time, that is not used for eating or sleeping, is used for trying to further expand their flexibility and stamina. In battle, they prefer to keep a distance until they need to strike a blow. They'd rather change up their form from time to time to confuse their enemy. Their attire tends to be loose, but only to ensure they are able to make fluid motions. 

    Asura teaches Lakshasa. Which favor precision/concentrated blow. Lakshasa people are more 
    serious and focused. They like to use grappling, pressure points, joint-breaking, and choking to 
    take down targets. They do not see in taking any mercy. Death is the only result of combat and is 
    not a tool for play. Everything is done to ensure that you can protect yourself and those that 
    matter to you. Their extra time is spent in practicing and honing their skills, never any time to 
    goof off. Whatever time is available for recovery is only for recovery, not for studying into 
    anything extra.

    *Above descriptions of the various schools c/p'ed from the history book given to us by Grolet.

    Santi and Asura are more 'neutral' in teaching. But both tie back into Brachus. So, there are already avenues for darkie monasteries/schools to pop up. It has been tried in the past with a clan for darkie monks, but I've no idea what happened to it. So, while it may not be a 'shadow' monk in the essence of another guild/class as you want. You have options to rp a dark monk.
    Post edited by Kerryn on April 27

    In light of it what Kerryn said It seams there was rp for this to happen before so why couldn't it be put into rp right now
  • KodaKoda Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭
    edited April 28
    You have to also bear in mind that the team upstairs has a development schedule that needs to be adhered to, and introducing new guilds and classes can be very time-intensive from a development standpoint.

    Skills need to be coded up, and if it's a reskin you're looking at 3 skillsets worth of message rewriting (that's a lot of messages), RP event needed to roll out the class, etc. etc. It's not something you simply do on a whim.

    Oleis has mentioned repeatedly that he's set a course of events and priorities going forward, and he's passed these to Tiur who seems to be doing the same. Judging by the amount of content and changes that have been pouring out over the past few months, this schedule has been adhered to and people have been hard at work - it's hard to imagine they'll have time to veer off course for something that takes as much resources as this when there are more pressing matters to attend to at the moment that are likely already plotted and in the planning, if not working stages.

    Opportunity cost here is the key. Putting off something for instance like a war system (that's been a player desire for a long time, not sure if anything's happening there, but just an example) that could impact the whole playerbase vs a class that would impact a fraction of it... bigger system wins there.
  • AnteheAntehe Member, Immortal Posts: 385 Immortal
    This is also a situation where we can't please everyone. Giving tether-locked specialties is essentially what Infernal and Paladin were, and there was a desire to have completely unique skills with no repetition between guilds/classes (such as current complaints about overlaps/similarities between Sciomancers and Ascendril and wanting to make them more unique).
    ArbreTeani
  • KerrynKerryn The Black Flagon InnMember, Guildmaster Posts: 270 ✭✭✭✭
    In my opinion, and realize it's just that. I believe they did that to give players options to play different styles of monks not guilds. Schools don't always equal guilds, and with twelve guilds to create another would cause a lot of complaining that so and so has more guilds than this or that city. That the dark monk skills are stronger than regular monk skills. And if it's the same skills with just different skill messages, it's pointless. It's already been shown that they want each class to be unique, so it's a step backwards. If they created another monk guild, they'd have to create 3 more guilds to be fair and they already axed four guilds to help the health of the game. To many guilds isn't always good, because then you have guilds that struggle for membership.

    Your idea, has merit and you can continue to move your rp in that direction even without a guild. If It were me, I'd begin with a clan, plus if you are the type of monks that stay in the shadow a 'super secret' org thing may play into why it's not a guild. Asura was super stealthy and lethal, when she entered the unveiling event, so it's feasible. But you should gauge interest, work on fleshing out the 'school'. It's purpose, beliefs, etc. What you expect of your members. Do you follow Asura's teachings or are you harsher? What kind of culture surrounds these monks at your school? If you need help or information about the Monks or their history, feel free to reach out to me, I'll do my best to share what I know to assist you in starting your clan/school. While it may not be a 'guild' in the normal sense of the word, it still provides plenty of opportunities for conflict amid the various schools of Tekara as well as Aetolia as a whole.

  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 151 ✭✭✭
    Antehe said:

    This is also a situation where we can't please everyone. Giving tether-locked specialties is essentially what Infernal and Paladin were, and there was a desire to have completely unique skills with no repetition between guilds/classes (such as current complaints about overlaps/similarities between Sciomancers and Ascendril and wanting to make them more unique).

    Since you mentioned Sciomancers/Ascendril duality, I will give my criticism on that from a business perspective. As a player I enjoy Mage classes generally more then other classes in a game. In that vein current Enchantments as tertiary really does not motivate me to throw further credits at it because;

    - Multiclassing to Sciomancer/Ascendril prevents Enchantments from being a unique trade to people who play those classes exclusively.
    - Due to widespread accessibility to Enchantments, you can find necessary enchantments at good prices around.
    - The amount of credits you will spend will be far greater in value then the cost saving you get from transing Enchantments and making them yourself.

    So basically you end up with a highly unprofitable tradeskill where everyone has access to...which does not even provide any extra benefit whatsoever to the Mage. An enchantment will not work better for the Mage, it will not heal you faster or work faster within your hands. So....

    Why should I throw credits or RL money to that utterly generic skillset? Now if there was a unique tertiary over there instead, Enchantments would become a mercantile skill...eventually both Enchantments as a tradeskill and Mage as a class would benefit a lot from that change.

    Of course designing a new skillset is never easy and requires serious amounts of resources and effort...but those are serious goods that people like me would buy. As a customer, I really do not care for were-stuff or the next fashionable plumage or fluffy new minipet. As long as that Enchantments remain as like that, it would mean the company is not making me spend 300 credits more. In the case of Enchantments becoming a Mercantile skill, it will be a serious skillset worth acquiring, no longer widely accessible via multiclass. And the tertiaries differentiating Ascendril/Sciomancer will encourage people who love those classes to tri-trans instead of sitting at two-trans.
  • TiurTiur Producer Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 280 admin
    @Koda Oh god, I have a schedule?! I was just doing things at random...

    Opportunity cost is exactly the term. But don't be disheartened, we have to make plans that extend over years. And while we arrange priorities based on resources, things like this can be valuable in determining what those resources should be allocated towards.
    KodaZaila
  • MegiddoMegiddo MegiddoMember Posts: 16
    @Tiur I am not asking for a guild is what I mean @Kerryn yes I agree, I am not asking well I was asking about another guild. So let me take that back. What I am seeking is more along the lines of different schools how you explained it. I would like to be able to have different abilities. As a monk rogue to have different abilities is some what unique and can rp into it more
  • KerrynKerryn The Black Flagon InnMember, Guildmaster Posts: 270 ✭✭✭✭
    Megiddo said:

    @Tiur I am not asking for a guild is what I mean @Kerryn yes I agree, I am not asking well I was asking about another guild. So let me take that back. What I am seeking is more along the lines of different schools how you explained it. I would like to be able to have different abilities. As a monk rogue to have different abilities is some what unique and can rp into it more

    Issue with that is. It will always develop into people flocking to the monk with the most 'powerful' abilities. They have tossed us a bone though. Each of the 'schools' offers a special style scroll that comes into play when bashing. You just have to complete the quest for each teacher. (Asura and Santi) Only guilded monks may use Dreshura.

    It's better to just rp the various flavors, while the skills remain the same to prevent imbalance.

    Megiddo
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia Somewhere in AtticaMember Posts: 475 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 28
    Sooo...what is it you're wanting? Dark side Monks as a guild or Dark side Monks as a class? Because I can list a bunch of reasons why you'd likely never see either.

    1. Monk, like Syssin, is already a neutral class. You want Tekura/Telepathy/Kaido for the Shadow side to use? Well, you can. Just get an apprenticeship. Not that hard. You already have people acting like class vending machines anyway. The guild is tied to Duiran, yes, but the class itself? The abilities themselves aren't explicitly linked to Spirit or Shadow, so you could spin it however you pleased. Why would you need a Shadow-specific Monk class?

    2. You've got a slew of classes on the Shadow side that use Shadow-related abilities. You want a physically-oriented class that uses Shadowy abilities? Carnifex. Syssin. Those two already fit the bill quite well.

    3. Why another Tekura-based class? I think it's better for classes to have unique skillsets fitting their guild's or their class' theme. Quite frankly, in future revamps either the Sentaari or the Daru will probably be losing Tekura in favor of something unique. Why have yet ANOTHER duplicate skillset in a game where you can multiclass? You want a guild of Dark Monks? Guess what? You can pick up Monk class and join any Shadow side guild.

    4. Every guild and class has a theme. What kind of theme would Shadow Tekura users have? That isn't already covered by any other class or guild? You want physically-oriented Shadow users? Carnifex. Syssin. Even certain aspects of Sentaari principles can be applied to certain Shadow-based guilds. The basis for Shadow-side Monks already exists. You just have to not be lazy in RP.

    Edit: As mentioned before, you're not likely to see any special Shadow side monk abilities because, again, the class itself is NEUTRAL. Like Syssin. The benefit Monk has over Syssin, however, is that Monk doesn't have any explicit lore ties to Spirit or Shadow. Syssin? Depending on who you ask and how well you know the lore, Syssin abilities are direct gifts from Severn (unless that's been officially retconned).
    Lin
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