Revive at Foci

AoiAoi Member Posts: 34 ✭✭
Lesser foci battles are not an asymmetrical battle. They are a one-sided battle, with favor given to the 'Spirit' tether. For all the claims that the 'Shadow' tether and 'Vampires' are the main draw of Aetolia, we are constantly given inadequate tools to own up to this claim. However, what tips the balance to a great degree and causes many to simply give up on fighting (despite there being no penalties on loss) and fall into what we can call disappointment fatigue, is the fact that living are able to trigger 'revive' on their fallen.

Without going into the specifics of class mechanics, which is a completely different argument, here is a list of strictly universal advantages the Spirit has over Shadow during a group fight:

1. Instant revive of all members (Since REVIVE does not function for Vampires)
2. Removal of vampires completely (Using 'Eyesigils' or skills. This prevents the use of DEATHLINK and ENTOMB for Praenomen faster recovery.)
3. Spirit Anchor artifact for all members (Does not work for vampires and vampires fighting as another class must wait a 2+ minutes before they can revive. Here is the equation: Time of death until action (EARTHMELD or DIFFUSE MIST) + 2 minute reform cycle + balance lose on RISE(5 seconds) = roughly 130 seconds.)

On the point of instant revives, I've heard someone argue "Just grab the bodies faster than us." Which is as ignorant to the issue and callous a response as I could personally find without trying to come up with it myself. The point is not that bodies can be claimed by the Spirit and revived, it's that Vampires can not do this at all. However, for the sake of argument, if Shadow gathered up all the living faster, yet a person carrying a living body died, that corpse that falls out of their inventory would be revived instantly and now we have an extreme shift in numbers. The living are able to do what movie zombies do: turn the fallen into allies. Kind of a weird shift of tone.

The easiest way to level out this imbalance is to restrict REVIVE to no longer being something that is done while in possession of a Foci Aura or any group oriented combat zone. I would rather that than some aggression timer or other condition.

On the removal of vampires completely using an eye sigil or skill. This seems completely vindictive and only serves a purpose in a world where the Shadow tether had the ability to do similar. Which they do not. Unless there is an ability that acts like Damnation (another spirit ability) that causes a corpse to decay instantly, why does this still exist in the game?

There may have been a time when Vampires revived faster than anyone else, but that time is long since gone. With Spirit_Anchor allowing the living to revive in one minute, this makes Vampires the slowest to revive. Even with DEATHLINK working (which is seldom does), this prevents us from doing that and the timing is still longer than 1 minute.
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Fyrren
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Comments

  • SerriceSerrice the Black Fox Member Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15
    Have you considered moving one room away before entombing?
     
    AoiValingarLin
  • IlyonIlyon Member Posts: 746 ✭✭✭
    While the issue is likely valid (not super-active these days, so don't want to comment either way), it's worth nothing that the spirit anchor does work for vampires.

  • AoiAoi Member Posts: 34 ✭✭
    Serrice said:

    Have you considered moving one room away before entombing?

    When killed, if someone uses an 'Eyesigil' or the skill that's like it, there is no time to move or react - DIFFUSE MIST is forced on us. This is a hard 2 minute reform cycle.

    I will be attempting to code around them instantly using that skill, but my point, once again, is that I should not have to code around a 1-sided skill that only limits a portion of the playerbase from playing. It should not exist. Everyone complaining about not enough conflict should not be in support of a skill that stalls the playing experience for other people.
    Ilyon said:

    While the issue is likely valid (not super-active these days, so don't want to comment either way), it's worth nothing that the spirit anchor does work for vampires.

    All signs point to no on this, can I get confirmation?
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    Fyrren
  • SerriceSerrice the Black Fox Member Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I mean, we have to code around a lot of things. If I didn't code around hidden Sun Tarot back in the day, or if I didn't code around Adder tarot, or if I didn't code around hidden wither, I would die laughably quickly to Indorani without a ghost of a chance of survival. So the coding barrier, unless it's extremely complex, isn't really that strong of a counterargument.

    In addition, I don't know if you regain balance/eq on death or not, but if you do, it's should be trivial to just make a script that polls exits and moves you in a direction instantly on death.
     
    AoiFyrren
  • AoiAoi Member Posts: 34 ✭✭
    Serrice said:

    I mean, we have to code around a lot of things. If I didn't code around hidden Sun Tarot back in the day, or if I didn't code around Adder tarot, or if I didn't code around hidden wither, I would die laughably quickly to Indorani without a ghost of a chance of survival. So the coding barrier, unless it's extremely complex, isn't really that strong of a counterargument.

    In addition, I don't know if you regain balance/eq on death or not, but if you do, it's should be trivial to just make a script that polls exits and moves you in a direction instantly on death.

    I didn't bring up class mechanics specifically because this is a completely different topic. I don't have to worry about survival. I have already died. What is happening is the Spirit has a unique ability that is not shared by anyone else in the game, in any fashion, that can hard lock a vampire from playing the game for 2 minutes. This is something anyone can do, but a few classes have skills that do it for them.

    You can argue that sun tarot and other tarot abilities add to the class' ability to fight and perform. All this does to vampires is make them hate being vampires just a little bit. If there existed something to slowdown a living persons revival, I am 100% positive the forums and issues would rise up to put it down. But there isn't. It only exists to harm the 'Draw of Aetolia'.
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    Fyrren
  • SerriceSerrice the Black Fox Member Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    We have a lot of things in the game that seem strong but are mitigated by simple, reasonable precautions. This is really no different. Noose, radiance, second-life skills, eye-on-death.

    I don't know if spirit anchor hits diffuse, but it drops entomb down to like 30s. It's really fast.
     
    AoiFyrren
  • AoiAoi Member Posts: 34 ✭✭
    edited January 15
    Serrice said:

    We have a lot of things in the game that seem strong but are mitigated by simple, reasonable precautions. This is really no different. Noose, radiance, second-life skills, eye-on-death.

    I don't know if spirit anchor hits diffuse, but it drops entomb down to like 30s. It's really fast.

    I don't understand why you're completely ignoring my point. Noose/Radiance/second life skills belong to -everyone-. None of the things you talked about specifically focus only one group of people in the game. The same group that is supposed to be the main draw of the game.

    Tell a brand new player to Aetolia who wants to get involve that the game has a mechanic that anyone can buy for 50g to force their mistform to undergo the process of diffusal (which is the reformation cycle living go through but for undead). Then tell them in order to work around this completely unfair mechanic, they need to code in a trigger to not only take in the exits of the environment but trigger it on their death each and every time.

    The point is not that it's something that can be coded around (negating its purpose) is that it shouldn't exist, it adds nothing but negativity to the game, and it's just not fun.

    Are you confirming that spirit_anchor works for vampires? Up to this point, it was not something vampires got to use.
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    Fyrren
  • SerriceSerrice the Black Fox Member Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not ignoring your point at all. I'm comparing it to comparable situations and applying the same logic that permits those to exist to this situation. If you concern is that this is a one-sided issue, my counter would be that vampires respawn quicker if they manage to get away, creating a higher reward-risk scenario.

    I have a thread from 2015 where Riluo complains about this and verifies that entomb is faster, and announce post 1776 indicates that spirit_anchor power affects entomb.
     
    Fyrren
  • AoiAoi Member Posts: 34 ✭✭
    Serrice said:

    I'm not ignoring your point at all. I'm comparing it to comparable situations and applying the same logic that permits those to exist to this situation. If you concern is that this is a one-sided issue, my counter would be that vampires respawn quicker if they manage to get away, creating a higher reward-risk scenario.

    I have a thread from 2015 where Riluo complains about this and verifies that entomb is faster, and announce post 1776 indicates that spirit_anchor power affects entomb.

    My original post outlined a handful of things, most of which are being ignored in your counter. I am not talking about Praenomen class solely, but vampires. Anyone can be a vampire and they do not have access to ENTOMB or vampire skills. This situation means that a VAMPIRE will be hard-locked to a 2 minute respawn. There is no high risk-reward situation here. There is only loss.

    With vampire combat not in a good place, most focus on other classes. It removes a lot of the flavor of the class too, which is being able to move around as a mist and earthmeld if you desire it nearby. Though this goes back to the spirit_anchor issue where the respawn time becomes 2+ minutes.

    There is no confirmation that Spirit_anchor works on a regular vampires, either. If it does, then I'll remove this single point since it will put vampires and living on the same timer for revive. It would benefit non-praenomen class vampires to be forced to diffuse as it would speed up the revive time and it would still be something Spirit would want to do in order to prevent a 30 second Entomb.

    However, the other two still stand about the unfairness of revive.
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    Fyrren
  • ValingarValingar Member Posts: 312 ✭✭✭
    Here's how I remember resurrection times:

    Living resurrection time is 162 seconds unartifacted and 81 seconds with spirit anchor.

    Vampire Entomb first takes a 3.5s channel, followed by 45s death time, which is halved by spirit anchor to 22.5s. 5 seconds to rise. This gives a total resurrection time of 53.5s without spirit anchor and a total resurrection time of 31 seconds with spirit anchor.

    Vampire Diffuse mist is 90 seconds, I think (a little unsure on this time), unaffected by spirit anchor.

    Vampire Earthmeld 120s + 5s to rise naturally (125s). This is halved by spirit anchor to 60 seconds + 5 to rise (so 65s).

    I forget how non-vampire undead work, but very faint memory says they take something like 80-90 seconds naturally to revive but do not benefit from spirit anchor.
    Aoi
  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 179 ✭✭✭
    edited January 15
    In all honesty, as a player who HAS coded around almost every situation in foci battles possible, this doesn't negate any of the abilities of a liver being able to completely revive their team in a mid-combat scenario. In my killscripts, I HAVE it set up to grab bodies on death. However, here's the issue.... if a vampire dies, they drop ALL the bodies they've been holding and at which point a lifer is able to pick up those bodies and... tada!! Revive their team while they slowly dwindle the opposing undead side.

    Undead, do not, in any circumstance, have the ability to revive any fellow undead because it leaves a husk. This leaves general combat skewed to lifer favor because of this. Not to mention eye sigils/truth force a vampire to actually be Earthmelded not diffuse. So in order to come back, you have to RISE in the SAME ROOM you were just murdered in, be off balance for 5 seconds, only to be slaughtered again because you can't leave immediately after rising. I also want to notate that I have been in foci situations where I was just constantly cycled by eye sigils/truth to never be able to fight in the lesser at all, because i'd only be killed again. Furthermore, if I didn't rise, you could just DIG and force me to rise. So, fun fact. If undead could do this to the lifer side, it would be nerfed/removed faster than you could say "Aoi".

    In all honesty, I have argued this point countless times and in each argument... I hear similar solutions:
    1) Stop being undead.
    2) Stop complaining because you're undead.
    3) Pick up the bodies faster than we can.
    4) Join the lifer side then.
    5) You have no right to complain because you have diffuse mist which is a faster death sequence than lifers. (Its not, but have fun convincing most unknowledgeable people that)
    The list goes on and on, it was actually a very heated argument on Discord once before I got banned.

    This revival issue would be solved completely if there was an aggression timer or if there was a restriction on being unable to revive while having hostility aura/foci aura. There's no need to keep one side at 100% constantly while slowly killing off the other side. I wish players understood that point a little more instead of focusing on the fact that undead are "special" with their death returns.

    FyrrenAoi
  • KerocKeroc A small cupboardMember, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 364 admin
    Valingar said:

    Here's how I remember resurrection times:

    Living resurrection time is 162 seconds unartifacted and 81 seconds with spirit anchor.

    Vampire Entomb first takes a 3.5s channel, followed by 45s death time, which is halved by spirit anchor to 22.5s. 5 seconds to rise. This gives a total resurrection time of 53.5s without spirit anchor and a total resurrection time of 31 seconds with spirit anchor.

    Vampire Diffuse mist is 90 seconds, I think (a little unsure on this time), unaffected by spirit anchor.

    Vampire Earthmeld 120s + 5s to rise naturally (125s). This is halved by spirit anchor to 60 seconds + 5 to rise (so 65s).

    I forget how non-vampire undead work, but very faint memory says they take something like 80-90 seconds naturally to revive but do not benefit from spirit anchor.

    These are all super close!

    Living/undead is 160 seconds.

    Vampire earthmeld is 120 seconds.
    Vampire being eyesigiled is 120 seconds.
    Vampire diffuse is 90 seconds.
    Vampire entomb is 40 seconds.

    Everyone benefits from spirit anchor in all situations.

    There is little point in involving RISE in my opinion, as everyone has to reapply defences or setup abilities before they become useful again. Some classes can get away with minimal defences though.

    AoiFyrrenLinXavin
  • AoiAoi Member Posts: 34 ✭✭
    Keroc said:


    These are all super close!

    Living/undead is 160 seconds.

    Vampire earthmeld is 120 seconds.
    Vampire being eyesigiled is 120 seconds.
    Vampire diffuse is 90 seconds.
    Vampire entomb is 40 seconds.

    Everyone benefits from spirit anchor in all situations.

    There is little point in involving RISE in my opinion, as everyone has to reapply defences or setup abilities before they become useful again. Some classes can get away with minimal defences though.

    Thank you for replying. It's good to have the accurate numbers and confirmation on Spirit_anchor.
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    Fyrren
  • EliadonEliadon Somewhere Over the RainbowMember Posts: 59 ✭✭✭
    edited January 16
    So, take away revive.. how about Carnifex/Indorani/Cabalist double starburst? Do we just give living people 'lifecage', now? =) I'd love that.

    Greenwind would also be nice.
    Rasani
  • TrikalTrikal Member Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    soulcage and starburst cannot both be active at once... Whatchu talkin' about @Eliadon?
    Aoi
  • EliadonEliadon Somewhere Over the RainbowMember Posts: 59 ✭✭✭
    Trikal said:

    soulcage and starburst cannot both be active at once... Whatchu talkin' about @Eliadon?

    My Achaea is leaking through.
    Aoi
  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Eliadon said:


    Greenwind would also be nice.

    Did you mean 'Lightform'?
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I'll still never forget the first time I saw Toz throwing hammers."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I freaked out and thought they had somehow managed to pull me into them."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "So I tumbled away from my team and into theirs."


  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah every time this comes ups it usually eventually shakes back down to. "Ah maybe it's not that unfair all things considered" Usually once the spirit answer question gets resolved everyone goes strangely quiet.




  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 179 ✭✭✭
    I think everyone is missing the point of the thread. The thread is not disputing or arguing starburst/soulcage/rebirth/etc. Its arguing the fact that in combat, lifer side can AND DOES constantly revive their fellow combatants while undead simply can't. So an undead team simply can not outmatch a lifer team that is reviving each other.

    Sure, we can target the reviver, but if you're fighting 6 people who, each of which, can revive the other. You're constantly at a state of 100% while eliminating the opposing force. So saying "Pick up the bodies faster" or "Just don't be a darkie then" isn't exactly solutions worth saying, because it defeats the whole purpose of fighting as a darkie team.

    So please, @Keroc, @Oleis... can there be an implementation of no revival in foci/hostility areas? Additionally, can truth/eyesigil be changed to where it forces the vampire to DIFFUSE MIST instead of EARTHMELD?

  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you do anything like that at all then I would have to demand ALL death timers be made equal otherwise what you're asking is ridiculous.




  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 179 ✭✭✭
    I fail to see how its ridiculous. On one hand, you have a complete lifer team that can revive each other INSTANTLY, while a darkie is out of a fight anywhere from 40-90s. This isn't taking into consideration defup times. Typically this boils down to 120s because not every undead is privy to ENTOMB/DEATHLINK... so they HAVE to diffuse mist. While the lifer team can just immediately continue wailing on the enemy team, because why defup when you can do that AFTER you beat the crap out of those pesky darkies.

    On the other hand, if the lifer team loses, they're down for a maybe 120s (including defup time) because almost single one of them has spirit_anchor.

    The request is NOT ridiculous, nor damaging, in any way to either side. In fact, it actually balances out the playing field and removes the advantage that lifers have at being able to revive each other instantly.

    Fyrren
  • OleisOleis Producer Emeritus Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 1,393 admin
    Rhyot said:


    So please, @Keroc, @Oleis... can there be an implementation of no revival in foci/hostility areas? Additionally, can truth/eyesigil be changed to where it forces the vampire to DIFFUSE MIST instead of EARTHMELD?

    I'll be opening classlead submissions this week.
    You say to Slyphe, "You're so freaking smart."
    [---]
    "^," Slyphe agrees with you.
    Fyrren
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you don't understand how much faster you can get back than us without revive then you didn't read any of the numbers posted above.




  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 179 ✭✭✭
    No, I read the numbers, but you're clearly ignoring a few vital points I made in my previous posts.

    1) Not all undead have the ability to entomb, thus are forced to DIFFUSE.
    2) No undead is able to be revived to continue the assault of the opposing team. (I'd like to point out that a group fight is more than capable of being (and usually is) done in 45s seconds (diffuse mist with the supposed spirit_anchor working)) If a group fight isn't over in 45s, ya'll are doing something seriously wrong.
    3) Each member of the lifer side CAN and DO revive each other, consistently. Forcing undead teams to give up on fighting at all when they can NOT eliminate the opposing side, regardless of equal numbers or not.

  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Think about what you're saying for a minute. You want to remove OUR advantage but leave your own. No. If you remove one, then both sides should be equal.




    Seir
  • EmirEmir Member Posts: 124 ✭✭✭
    If I have to read one more post where you callously group undead with vampires I'm going to lose my mind. #undeadlivesmatter

    Undead people can be revived. Vampires cannot be revived. People probably know what you mean but what happens when a noob comes to read this thread and gets confused? Then you have another generation of players growing up with misinformation.

    To address the problem of revives in a fight - you have Quarry, a major hound trait, that will destroy corpses and good old Necromancy Rot, which, if you order within the next 15 minutes!!!! We'll throw in a free bonus, culling blade effect!!!!

    Alternatively, death to Singularities leaves behind no body to revive. :D
    (Web): Toz says, "Emir's Express Evacuation and Existence Eradicator, Every Experience is Explosive - Experience the Entirety of your Existence!"
    FyrrenSeir
  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 179 ✭✭✭
    Removing revival in a foci/orrery battle DOES NOT shift the tides, nor does it shift advantages. It levels the playing field.

    1) Revival CAN NOT be done to an undead.
    2) Fights are done in 45 seconds. At which point, death sequence times are negligible, because your forces have to regather/defup/restrategize anyway.
    3) Spirit side IS CAPABLE of reviving EACH of their fellow combatants, leaving their fighting force at 100%.

    I want to reiterate that removing the ability to revive MID-COMBAT or even POST COMBAT does not and will not shift advantages. But will merely level the playing field to who can kill who quicker.

  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you're not willing to give up your own advantage/level the playing field to have a major change then the change probably isn't warranted.




  • RasaniRasani Member Posts: 119 ✭✭✭
    @Rhyot How do you not see what Aishia is saying? You want to remove an advantage the life side has, ie revive. However, when we go "hey, your revive time is a lot faster than ours (as confirmed by Keroc) " you say "That's not the point"? No, it is. We have the skills, likely BECAUSE you guys get up faster than we do. Like, literally unartied or not, you guys are faster at getting up. Either it ALL becomes the same time, artis being the only way to change it, or it stays as it is.

    It ABSOLUTELY has ground in this argument. When you guys have the potential to get back up in as little as... looks like 40 seconds? And our fastest one with arti is 80+ seconds? That's an imbalance too and, again, LIKELY WHY WE CAN REVIVE. If you want to ditch one, you gotta ditch the other, even if it's just during lesser foci.

    Again, changes to make combat more fair are FINE, but you have to make it go both ways. If you don't want to hear "then stop being undead" you can't go "up yours, become a vampire if you want to get up faster".
    AishiaSeir
  • FyrrenFyrren Member Posts: 121 ✭✭✭
    Emir said:

    If I have to read one more post where you callously group undead with vampires I'm going to lose my mind. #undeadlivesmatter

    Undead people can be revived. Vampires cannot be revived. People probably know what you mean but what happens when a noob comes to read this thread and gets confused? Then you have another generation of players growing up with misinformation.

    To address the problem of revives in a fight - you have Quarry, a major hound trait, that will destroy corpses and good old Necromancy Rot, which, if you order within the next 15 minutes!!!! We'll throw in a free bonus, culling blade effect!!!!

    Alternatively, death to Singularities leaves behind no body to revive. :D

    Finally!!! Undead and Vampires are two entirely seperate things #lrn2loreppl.

    You made my day.
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