City and Guilds - Goals and Consequences

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Comments

  • TrikalTrikal Member Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    edited January 11
    Irruel said:

    Spinesreach isn't a bad match, and in my opinion needs an org like the Carnifex to be a complete city.

    Come wage war. Spines has its defenders it'll be fine.
    FaerahEydisFezzix
  • XeniaXenia Member Posts: 886 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Syssin are Spinesreach's frontline. That said, I think Spinesreach could easily fit the Carnifex just as well as Bloodloch (Note: This is not an argument or assertion that they shouldn't be in BL or that I want to 'fight' to make them Spirean).
    image
    Trikal
  • EmelleEmelle the Seer Seer's WoodMember Posts: 711 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Kylan said:


    One question I do have is - are organisational identities going to be reviewed? I'm thinking more about cities as I can see how, for example, Enorian for me as a player is just really.. ehh.. nothing against the current leaders or anyone working on it, but the focus on city Gods is pretty much exactly what -Kylan- would have wanted Enorian to be. As a player, it is not particularly.. thrilling? Before that Enorian was a city of Light with religious zealots (Not just of the Daru variety).

    My feeling is that -- and I say this as the player of the city's Cardinal -- the identity of Enorian hasn't changed much, it's just that religion has been brought more to the fore as a flavor thing. That doesn't mean that every character has the same reverence for the Gods, just as I think the city as a whole has moved away from zealotry feeling like a requirement for citizenship. I think Enorian today has a much richer diversity of characters with different motives who are (generally) united under the banner of Light/Spirit.
  • IrruelIrruel Member Posts: 650 ✭✭✭✭
    Xenia said:

    The Syssin are Spinesreach's frontline. That said, I think Spinesreach could easily fit the Carnifex just as well as Bloodloch (Note: This is not an argument or assertion that they shouldn't be in BL or that I want to 'fight' to make them Spirean).

    I'm talking about RP niche here. Oleis wants each city to be self-contained. As a new player, I might be drawn to rar rar warrior classes, and also of being living, dark aligned, in a frozen city in the north.

    I research the options, and don't see many. The syssin look like sneaky rogues and that's not my style. I'm vaguely aware that multiclassing exists so I can play whatever class I want to, but I'm a newbie. I want the guild experience and it isn't available, so I'll look at different cities.

    I'm not saying every city needs 5 guilds to choose from, but they definitely need something for each basic playing style.
    Xenia
  • RasaniRasani Member Posts: 119 ✭✭✭
    Emelle said:

    Kylan said:


    One question I do have is - are organisational identities going to be reviewed? I'm thinking more about cities as I can see how, for example, Enorian for me as a player is just really.. ehh.. nothing against the current leaders or anyone working on it, but the focus on city Gods is pretty much exactly what -Kylan- would have wanted Enorian to be. As a player, it is not particularly.. thrilling? Before that Enorian was a city of Light with religious zealots (Not just of the Daru variety).

    My feeling is that -- and I say this as the player of the city's Cardinal -- the identity of Enorian hasn't changed much, it's just that religion has been brought more to the fore as a flavor thing. That doesn't mean that every character has the same reverence for the Gods, just as I think the city as a whole has moved away from zealotry feeling like a requirement for citizenship. I think Enorian today has a much richer diversity of characters with different motives who are (generally) united under the banner of Light/Spirit.
    Interestingly, this was discussed with Oleis. The direction will stay much the same. Zealotry has a place, of course, but it's not expected.
  • KylanKylan Member Posts: 24 ✭✭
    Irruel said:

    Kylan said:

    I am still not sure how I feel about the overarching changes being made - do I think they're positive? Sure. I've spent some time bouncing between games and guilds in Aetolia (I put quite a bit of time into a Carnifex a while back - it's a shame that they're going to be the biggest casualty from this sort of change).

    My own thoughts on Aetolia were basically "Move towards more city-integration" in regards to newbies (After having played Lusternia) and there have been steps taken to combat idling/player accessibility. (Something which Lusternia does poorly)
    ....
    I suppose what I am driving at is are the city identities going to be broader to allow for different viewpoints in the cities?
    tl;dr - I think it's a positive step. Sorry for Carnifex. What about city as a detraction for guilds and core mechanic engagement?

    Hullo Kylan. Good to see you're still kicking around muds somewhere.

    Something that confused me at the start of this discussion, is the question of why, in this age of multiclassing, is it even an issue? Why would a templar actually want to join Duiran? Why would a shaman want to join Enorian? If I want Duiran's RP/environment/company, but like the Templar class, then I can join Duiran, and even one of its guilds, and keep using the templar class. There is no need for a Shaman in Enorian. Choose one of the (each different) Enorian guilds, and multiclass shaman. You get your cake and you can eat it. It's a never-ending cake: choose the guild/city RP you like, match it with the class you like, and enjoy the game. So much easier than the old days.

    I'm sure there is the odd situation where someone loves the Daru RP but hates so many people in Enorian they can't be a citizen. The odd outlier like that just needs to be a casualty, in my opinion. Of course, cities must also not be too stifling.

    The Carnifex are a large outlier though. Built over a long period as guild > city, they change hurts them because for so long they existed in two places and made it work well. Moving them to one or the other city unfortunately leaves a hole in the other city. Spinesreach will now lack a 'front line warrior' guild, and while Bloodloch might seem like it suits the Carnifex theme best, Spinesreach isn't a bad match, and in my opinion needs an org like the Carnifex to be a complete city.

    Hallo. It has been a while, hasn't it?

    From my point of view, the reason that it is such a big issue is because the guild is still (From my experience) the core of the people you will interact with and the role you play. I agree that multiclassing has, for the most part, improved things considerably. My concern isn't so much for wanting to be a Illuminai in Duiran or a Sentinel in Enorian, but the cities themselves being an active barrier to entry for guilds, either for new players who don't find the new city appealing or old players where the city simply has a grudge which can be maintained. Thankfully, I've not heard a lot about about this recently (Other than Arbre's Spinesreach example earlier in the thread).

    There is also the secondary question that makes it more difficult to org hop since the requirement is to go from leaving a guild to join another to leaving both guild and city. Currently, there is the possibility to transition. Say for example, I join the Sentinels but remain in Enorian. This acts as a good point of transition to leave Enorian and join Duiran because I decide "Hey, I like these people". Of course, you have that same transition without a city, but to join the guild you want to join, you also have to leave the city that you are indifferent/positive about.

    I don't know about the Illuminai, but I think to some degree that most guilds have the mentality that guild > city, which is what tying the guild to the city could stifle. Again, in my view, the guild is the people you will interact with daily (Newbies and old hands) and build up most familiarity with. The cities are much bigger and it's harder to make those connections.

    I agree that going forward, there are going to be casualties and that is necessary for the health of the game. My concern is that a longer term casualty ends up being a guild itself.
    HavenErzsebet
  • KylanKylan Member Posts: 24 ✭✭
    Emelle said:

    Kylan said:


    One question I do have is - are organisational identities going to be reviewed? I'm thinking more about cities as I can see how, for example, Enorian for me as a player is just really.. ehh.. nothing against the current leaders or anyone working on it, but the focus on city Gods is pretty much exactly what -Kylan- would have wanted Enorian to be. As a player, it is not particularly.. thrilling? Before that Enorian was a city of Light with religious zealots (Not just of the Daru variety).

    My feeling is that -- and I say this as the player of the city's Cardinal -- the identity of Enorian hasn't changed much, it's just that religion has been brought more to the fore as a flavor thing. That doesn't mean that every character has the same reverence for the Gods, just as I think the city as a whole has moved away from zealotry feeling like a requirement for citizenship. I think Enorian today has a much richer diversity of characters with different motives who are (generally) united under the banner of Light/Spirit.
    I can only touch on this briefly before I've got to dash: I agree, it doesn't seem to have changed much beyond increasing the prominence of the Gods. I don't think Enorian ever was a place where you were -required- to be a zealot, but depending who was in charge (I am guilty of this as Kylan) that impression could be made. I suppose the point I am making is.. I don't get why the change was necessary. For me, it gives weight to Gods/Orders which before could potentially change the political dynamic of Enorian. In short, the adoption of religion was player-driven whereas now it is codified into the identity of the city.

    Again, I don't want to say I hate the idea. I've seen enough of it to see some positives, but as a player, I am very much indifferent about it. I may just be getting old..
  • FezzixFezzix Member Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    Irruel said:

    I'm talking about RP niche here. Oleis wants each city to be self-contained. As a new player, I might be drawn to rar rar warrior classes, and also of being living, dark aligned, in a frozen city in the north.

    I research the options, and don't see many. The syssin look like sneaky rogues and that's not my style. I'm vaguely aware that multiclassing exists so I can play whatever class I want to, but I'm a newbie. I want the guild experience and it isn't available, so I'll look at different cities.

    I'm not saying every city needs 5 guilds to choose from, but they definitely need something for each basic playing style.

    I understand that you want diverse RP styles for a variety of character types, but you also have to consider the overall RP theme of the cities instead of looking only at the guilds. Spinesreach is a city based on elitism and the pursuit of knowledge by any means, so it makes perfect sense that their guilds use a thematically "fight with your head" approach that utilizes raw intellectual power and finesse over brute force.

    A "rar rar warrior" class could perhaps eke out an existence in Spinesreach as an individual, but a guild matching what you're looking for simply doesn't belong in that particular city. The closest you'll come to it is probably the Sciomancers, but their "rar rar" aspect is based in intellect and magic, and the Syssin (while perfectly capable of making a show of force) are fighters who live in the shadows and prefer finesse and precision.

    If you have multiple RP styles you're pursuing but they clash with each other in the framework of the lore that exists, don't be surprised if you have trouble carving a niche for yourself. We can't dilute the lore by catering to every possible player desire that might crop up, either. An example: I would probably make Fezzix a shapeshifter, but that means the grecht in the Dehkay Plateau would dislike him, so I won't pursue that avenue.

  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Everyone saying that Spinesreach has no place for a militant/soldier type is doing poor @Kelliara's Atabahi a great disservice. They DID have a front line, vicious soldier unit and it WORKED, thematically, with Spinesreach. A cold, barren, harsh city with an equally violent and harsh front lines. Carnifex could have fit, though that's not where they want them. Blows, but saying 'no soldier archetype could fit' is flat-out incorrect.
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I'll still never forget the first time I saw Toz throwing hammers."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I freaked out and thought they had somehow managed to pull me into them."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "So I tumbled away from my team and into theirs."


    KelliaraXeniaHaven
  • FezzixFezzix Member Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    Toz said:

    Everyone saying that Spinesreach has no place for a militant/soldier type is doing poor @Kelliara's Atabahi a great disservice. They DID have a front line, vicious soldier unit and it WORKED, thematically, with Spinesreach. A cold, barren, harsh city with an equally violent and harsh front lines. Carnifex could have fit, though that's not where they want them. Blows, but saying 'no soldier archetype could fit' is flat-out incorrect.

    They DO have a front line, and it's called the Syssin. The Syssin are actually quite militant, and the role meshes well with Spinesreach's theme. A front line doesn't necessarily have to be chest-beating warriors, especially not in a city that bases its strength in intellect and "fighting with your head" as I mentioned earlier.

    Were the Atabahi meant to be militant? Wolf packs have structure and heirarchy, but there are plenty of organizations that have structure without being militant. Every city has a "militant" guild in it, those being the Templars, Sentinels, Syssin, and (originally intended) Carnifex, and putting two of these guilds in one city is clumsy.

    I was never around when the Atabahi existed, so I don't have a frame of reference or any insight as to how well they fit the theme and why they were disbanded, whether it was for mechanics or for lore reasons. After speaking with Oleis on the direction of the city -right now- and -in the immediate future-, however, it's harder to justify the existence of an overtly vicious, savage warrior guild.
  • TeaniTeani Evening Sky SwedenMember Posts: 1,854 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12
    The Atabahi had lore connecting them to Spinesreach back to the Ankyrean age, through Yrtez. They were brutal, they were aggressive, but I wouldn't say militant. Sure, they were a fighting force, connected to the Syssin in a way, seeking greatness for the city of Spinesreach. At least from what I saw when I was part of it. Granted, I was not there when Kelliara had taken over.

    The Carnifex don't have the same sort of connection with Spinesreach through that kind of lore. They have their connection with the Infernals, Knights of Death and Darkness. The Infernals were necromancers, as are the Carnifex, working with the souls of people, and they too relied on fealty, so there's nothing new there. They put aside Chivalry for a more savage approach when they evolved, still connected to the Iron Citadel in the city of Undeath. They are still dreadknights.
    (I know some of you involved in this discussion already know this, but I'm bringing it up for the benefit of those who don't know much about the Infernals.)

    As Fezzix mentioned, there would be an obvious imbalance if there was a switch. Pairing the Sciomancers (who would probably have been the ones to switch) with the Teradrim, would not come close to matching the combination of Carnifex and Syssin. And the conversations that have been held with Oleis recently puts the Sciomancers quite firmly in Spinesreach. Not as a "rar rar warrior class", but something more sophisticated.



    Leana
  • FezzixFezzix Member Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    Teani said:

    The Atabahi had lore connecting them to Spinesreach back to the Ankyrean age, through Yrtez. They were brutal, they were aggressive, but I wouldn't say militant. Sure, they were a fighting force, connected to the Syssin in a way, seeking greatness for the city of Spinesreach. At least from what I saw when I was part of it. Granted, I was not there when Kelliara had taken over.

    After having been given a couple history lessons in how Spinesreach used to function and how the Atabahi fit into it, it's pretty obvious that the city does indeed have room for "harsh and violent" orgs as @Toz put it. I was wrong here, and I hope you can forgive my ignorance.

    Even if Spinesreach is shifting towards its more polarized "intellectual" theme, the Atabahi lore is there, it's solid, and although there is no official guild for it, I would completely understand the formation of at least a clan. As I understand it, @Xenia is already following something in that vein?

    It sucks having the rug pulled out from under you after all the work you've put into something that you call your own, but I hope that the affected players can shift accordingly, and I want to help support them as they do so. That being said, I intend to have Fezzix act appropriately to his character in game.

    KelliaraXenia
  • FyrrenFyrren Member Posts: 121 ✭✭✭
    Haven't been actively playing for a long time but hoping to change that soon. Read the first 2 and a half pages of this discussion and the fifth page since I noticed it is mostly revolving around Carnifex and the issues to come with these sorts of changes.

    My main character in Aetolia is a die-hard Teradrim, Ivoln follower, Undeath or GTFO kind of guy and while the idea of changing it that living could join Bloodloch would kind of mess up the RP I have invested years into I think that the idea of getting rid of Undeath completely would be a great option. While it would mean a lot of changes to things, it could simply be that in place of Undeath you simply have a Shadow-tethered state of being like being Soulless or such, applying to all Shadow-tethed citizens or people using Shadow-tethed classes.

    This would get rid of the idea of conflicts, in my mind, based on the roleplay of a lot of Bloodlochian players who are against living. I see that the Admins have tried to turn the focus of the world away from Undeath-Vs-Living and shift to Shadow-Vs-Spirit but the problem I have noticed is that it has never truly shifted 100%, at least not for entire tethers.

    For example, I find that the changes to the Teradrim's direction are awesome but incomplete and have left a lot of players having to kind of improvise their place in the world. The idea that the Teradrim are these allies to the guardians of the prisons of the Sorcerer-Kings has a lot of potential to be great but is very lacking within the guild.

    But with this rises another issue that the Teradrim are still largely paying a lot of respect to one specific God, Ivoln. If there were to be a change that Undeath ceases to exist (since it would have made sense to have undeath end when the sundering of Dhaivol happened) it would allow the Teradrim to be less of a religious thing and shift 100% to the Earthen spectrum, being focused on the whole Sorcerer-King and Azvosh theme.

    I would love to see guilds be smaller organizations within a city that all have an important role to fill within their city and have some mechanics that force the guilds to work with each other on a regular basis, aside from just foci stuff.

    The pouring of blood on the dolmens, for the Teradrim, for example, could also be changed to be changed to this:

    It could be changed to have it be player-by-player, where each player has to pour the blood in order to ever achieve the earthen-form and they need to regularly refill a gauge which is drained when using the earthen-form. This would get newer players in the guild more immersed within the lore of the guild and the inner-guild functionality since a lot of newer members simply don't know what purpose the guild has aside from thinking rocks are cool as hell.

    I would love to see this kind of changes come into the game because I love the idea that the guilds would simply be different factions that are loyal and devoted wholly to a city and its ideals, with their own ideals working together rather than conflicting and having nothing to do with each other. But that's just like... my opinion man. Sorry for the long, convoluted, and poorly arranged post, and the bad English, and being totally centered around Teradrim but that's kinda all I am these days. Strength in Earth, baby!

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    Avatar of Fyrren drawn by the amazing Sessizlik.
    SibattiSethLeana
  • OleisOleis Producer Emeritus Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 1,393 admin
    Thanks for an extremely well-thought post. I agree there's a pretty good argument for removing undeath, but I'm not sure it's necessarily the best answer. The Teradrim are my last stop for guild meetings, since I expect them to be a tough nut to crack and we're working together to address a lot of the points you mentioned.
    You say to Slyphe, "You're so freaking smart."
    [---]
    "^," Slyphe agrees with you.
    FyrrenLeana
  • FyrrenFyrren Member Posts: 121 ✭✭✭
    Oleis said:

    Thanks for an extremely well-thought post. I agree there's a pretty good argument for removing undeath, but I'm not sure it's necessarily the best answer. The Teradrim are my last stop for guild meetings, since I expect them to be a tough nut to crack and we're working together to address a lot of the points you mentioned.

    Well, I am glad it is not the first resort. I really like the idea of undeath in the game but don't see it as 100% necessary to keep enjoying my time online.

    I look forward to seeing what comes of the meeting and hope I can give some useful input when the time comes. I have a lot of different ideas when it comes to the Teradrim and hope that they can be useful to you all during this time of change.
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    Avatar of Fyrren drawn by the amazing Sessizlik.
  • LeanaLeana Member Posts: 84 ✭✭✭
    I also think that undeath muddies the waters of conflict in Aetolia. Even Vampires aren't really 'Undead', according to the lore. They're more a version of shadow magic gone craycray. Though I'm just going loosely on what I've heard. It wouldn't be the first time we've been wrong about something considered a staple of the game (See Ashtan actually a collections of isles)

    Then again, it would be nice if in the upcoming major conflicts everyone played a different part. Like undead couldn't be hurt by ylem weapons because they don't have a spark. Likewise, they can't use them because of the same reason, hence needing the living.


    Fyrren
  • FyrrenFyrren Member Posts: 121 ✭✭✭
    Leana said:

    I also think that undeath muddies the waters of conflict in Aetolia. Even Vampires aren't really 'Undead', according to the lore. They're more a version of shadow magic gone craycray. Though I'm just going loosely on what I've heard. It wouldn't be the first time we've been wrong about something considered a staple of the game (See Ashtan actually a collections of isles)

    Then again, it would be nice if in the upcoming major conflicts everyone played a different part. Like undead couldn't be hurt by ylem weapons because they don't have a spark. Likewise, they can't use them because of the same reason, hence needing the living.

    If I recall correctly, vampires have to go through undeath as a nightstalker before being embraced simply out of respect for Ivoln (originally Dhaivol) but I might be wrong. I do know they are not technically undead since they are not required to return to the Earth upon death and can go to their coffins (with the skill of course). And Ivoln looks down on them due to that fact.

    Undeath is a cool mechanic and adds a lot of flavor to one side of the game but it is complicated as ever.. I remember a time when several Vampires were going on about how Undead are second-rate citizens in Bloodloch and some considered them to be slaves. These days I see more vampires around than straight-forward undead but that may just be due to multiclassing and wanting vampire RP in the houses and such.

    As well, it seems that these days there are less reasons not to go full on vampire rather than stay undead. I could be wrong at this moment but I recall something about vampires being able to sunwalk no problem these days.
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    Avatar of Fyrren drawn by the amazing Sessizlik.
  • ErebosErebos Right there! Oh you missed him!Member Posts: 36 ✭✭
    Or, double down on it.  Make Bloodloch only admit Undead and Vampires and add more Undead content. More classes or racial specializations and campaign for Undead superiority. 

    Fyrren
  • ErebosErebos Right there! Oh you missed him!Member Posts: 36 ✭✭
    Totally unbiased opinion, by the way. 

  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 179 ✭✭✭
    That's not the way to go about it. If you made Bloodloch an undead/vampire only city, you would essentially kill a city off entirely to the point where the admins would have no choice but to delete it. Reason being, not many even want to play a vampire much anymore because the entry cost into Praenomen is so unicorns high just to be contendable.

    Why bother when you can play a Carnifex (living or undead) and go a speed route, Teradrim (living or undead) and no require artifacts or balance enhance, Sciomancer (living/undead), or Indorani (living/undead) because Tarot is awesome. I'd say Cabal and Syssin, but I think you get the idea. Praenomen, while it can be a strong class, is also an intricate class that requires a heavy upfront cost to be usable for the average player.

    As it is, Bloodloch is now accepting living people to help bring life back into an otherwise decrepit city that (by rights) should have been destroyed a long time ago due to the lack of interaction among the players and the lack of anything being done BY the players.

  • ErebosErebos Right there! Oh you missed him!Member Posts: 36 ✭✭
     From a new-player perspective,  Bloodloch is muddled and complacent. I just want purpose and direction for Bloodloch.

    Mihaketi
  • OleisOleis Producer Emeritus Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 1,393 admin
    I split the off-topic chat into its own thread. It deserves to keep going!
    You say to Slyphe, "You're so freaking smart."
    [---]
    "^," Slyphe agrees with you.
  • TenshyoTenshyo Member Posts: 376 ✭✭✭
    @Fyrren RE: Vampire over Undeath.

    And the reasons for that are usually related to Bloodloch became SO heavily oriented around vampires and seeing Undeath/Living people as worthless/subpar that players were backed into a corner. Dominion laws aren't exactly.. kosher with doing anything, with anyone, that isn't a vampire or undeath (even with Undeath it's sketchy!)

    There was a time when a living character could DO things in Bloodloch and while being seen as a lesser citizen or whathaveyou, they were still able to do what they wanted to do. And well... over the years as players became MORE and MORE, and MORE strict seemingly on what they would allow.... Bloodloch died.

    As @Rhyot can attest, I've long heard that Bloodloch as a whole - as far as RP - has just been a ghost town. You'd get better luck RP-ing at a cricket. I've heard the same things even from old Keeper's and House Heads.

    From the outside: Bloodloch cannot afford staying to a STRICT UNDEATH/VAMPIRE ONLY stand point. As Rhyot said above, if someone isn't wanting exactly to be FORCED into Undeath/Vampire they can play literally every class but Praenomen on the Shadow side and be perfectly fine somewhere else.

    @Erebos also as Rhyot said, and what I'm getting at here, is that is what Bloodloch has been doing for awhile, and... well it's not done them any favors. (Again from the outside looking in)

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