Whom do strict crafting standards help?

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Comments

  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I keep reading this thread and thinking of hyphens and getting mad again. Some wounds never heal. I like @Emelle's approach - I don't care if an item IG follows some style guide, room descs the whole game from through get less scrutiny than my mankini and that seems bizarre. Or at least I assume since no builders have raged about it so far, I admittedly have not built here. Also if I wasn't on a phone this whole post would have hyphens not spaces because I am still genuinely angry about that design *and I don't even remember what the item was*. My lasting impression of the crafters guild is that it is a bunch of unicorns and I hope they stub their toe repeatedly, and that points probably to some anger issues but also maybe to a problem with how strict (even when wrong) they are.
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I'll still never forget the first time I saw Toz throwing hammers."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I freaked out and thought they had somehow managed to pull me into them."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "So I tumbled away from my team and into theirs."


  • RasaniRasani Member Posts: 119 ✭✭✭
    Funny you should mention building, because I have written rooms. As Development Minister, I wrote the tavern in Enorian. And it got sent right the hell back to me because it wasn't up to snuff. In fact, it was far more scrutinized than anything I've ever put through the crafting queue. It isn't just crafting that this happens in, it happens in anything that's going to outlive a character description. A bad room will stay bad until the city shells out gold to fix the issue. Those rooms, and your designs, are going to be there for a long time and the game itself is old. Switching everything to a new system of grammar and such would leave a lot of the game obsolete, and with the lack of people actually working for the game (We hear people bitching all the time about not having their Gods) it would be inane to suggest these people, many unpaid, go through and fix everything. It would likely also require cities to pay out the nose to have everything fixed in their description.
    And of course, people can say "Yeah, it's keeping me away from it/it's annoying/I don't like it" but at the end of the day, even something as simple as "let's change the grammar standard" impacts every part of the game. Having different grammar standards for crafting then you would building would be jarring, and things like houses and havens are private so there's no need to have those approved like you would a crafting item. Which is, again, typically assumed to be for public consumption.
    Is Aetolia by any means the grammar standard of the world? Of course not, but unfortunately, we already know what happens when you switch crafting standards halfway through, you're left with really jarring things remaining. I know I've seen t-shirts around from days when you could do that, and all changing that would do now is add to the rift.
    I look at it in the way I look at animation shortcuts. Is it somewhat unsettling or cringeworthy to see a character's hair or something go through their body for a second? Yeah, it is. When you're looking for it, you see the hell out of it. But sometimes that little irritation is the only thing keeping the animation from flying all over the place and crashing. Admin are already swamped, we know there aren't a ton of them. Altering grammar standard does impact more than just crafting. They are, at the end of the day, hoping to create a uniform front as far as the writing standards goes. You change one, you have to change them all.
    Mykellah
  • NiaNia TrashyMember Posts: 81 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2016
    Rasani said:

    Switching everything to a new system of grammar and such would leave a lot of the game obsolete, and with the lack of people actually working for the game [...] it would be inane to suggest these people, many unpaid, go through and fix everything. It would likely also require cities to pay out the nose to have everything fixed in their description.

    Listen, I really don't want to get mad or fight you, Internet Stranger. I don't know you, and for all I know you could be a really good person with whom I'd get along great. You could be a Buffy fan or someone who takes recycling seriously and we'd have a lot to talk about.

    I'm trying to make a case about x. That's why I'm here. I perceive x as problematic, you disagree and think the opposite, so I'm happy to have a debate here about x, and why I think x is a problem, and why you think x is necessary. That's fine.

    But that isn't possible if you're going to consistently argue against something that wasn't said, that no one is suggesting or even implying. You're debating a straw-man. I called you out on it in my previous post, and I'm pretty sure that by now I definitely sound condescending, but you're doing it again.

    There is absolutely no reason why relaxing overly stringent standards of grammar, and being more accepting of different standards, would render any existing items or rooms under the current standard obsolete. Grammar rules change all the time, as was pointed out earlier. I'm pretty sure no one has taken a hatchet to double-spaced documents that the government must have kept during the typewriting era. No one is suggesting they should be made obsolete. In fact, wanting to police things more intensely is exactly the opposite of what this thread is about, so no one is suggesting any new workload for volunteers.
    DraimanMykellah
  • RasaniRasani Member Posts: 119 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2016
    Nia said:

    Rasani said:

    Switching everything to a new system of grammar and such would leave a lot of the game obsolete, and with the lack of people actually working for the game [...] it would be inane to suggest these people, many unpaid, go through and fix everything. It would likely also require cities to pay out the nose to have everything fixed in their description.

    Listen, I really don't want to get mad or fight you, Internet Stranger. I don't know you, and for all I know you could be a really good person with whom I'd get along great. You could be a Buffy fan or someone who takes recycling seriously and we'd have a lot to talk about.

    I'm trying to make a case about x. That's why I'm here. I perceive x as problematic, you disagree and think the opposite, so I'm happy to have a debate here about x, and why I think x is a problem, and why you think x is necessary. That's fine.

    But that isn't possible if you're going to consistently argue against something that wasn't said, that no one is suggesting or even implying. You're debating a straw-man. I called you out on it in my previous post, and I'm pretty sure that by now I definitely sound condescending, but you're doing it again.

    There is absolutely no reason why relaxing overly stringent standards of grammar, and being more accepting of different standards, would render any existing items or rooms under the current standard obsolete. Grammar rules change all the time, as was pointed out earlier. I'm pretty sure no one has taken a hatchet to double-spaced documents that the government must have kept during the typewriting era. No one is suggesting they should be made obsolete. In fact, wanting to police things more intensely is exactly the opposite of what this thread is about, so no one is suggesting any new workload for volunteers.
    I wouldn't suspect anyone to be mad, it's a text game, there's no need to be mad!

    My point is clearly not coming along as I'm hoping it should, however, so let me try and rephrase. My last post was kind of long and rambly so I probably lost my point somewhere in there.

    There is a uniform front they are trying to present I'd imagine. Similar grammar between crafted items and buildings, npc descriptions and such. Of course, things like character descriptions and havens and such aren't held to this standard, but they are easily changed and, by in large, will not last as long. Crafting designs, npcs and rooms are made with the intent to be able to last until the game ends. Keeping everything uniform helps add to the immersion. You're a wordsmith, I look at it from a visual aspect. Keeping grammar styles, at least, similar is like making sure all your artists can work in a similar style. It would be really jarring to be playing a game that looks like fallout 4, only to later come across a character model that looks like it was spit out of Oblivion. So, what can you do? Well, you can either try and make sure all your artists are, in fact, up to snuff, try and keep things even remotely similar, even if it ends up looking a little more Skyrim than you might like, or you change the entire game so that that one artist's work doesn't look so out of place. And sure, you can just tell people to avoid the stuff made by that artist, but it isn't super professional looking, you know?
    So, in the spirit of that, changing grammar standards, even to be less stringent, because I know that's what you're suggesting, I can see why what I said would seem like I don't, creates that sort of situation, in my mind. To create that uniformity that I believe the game strives for in those things, you either try to keep everyone using similar tools, even if they're a little outdated, or you try and update the whole game, which is a massive undertaking.

    Edit: To clarify though, I have no idea. I've never worked on a project like this, but I have worked on other game projects. This is the problem that comes to my mind, but for all I know, it's not even an issue with a game of this nature.
  • EmelleEmelle the Seer Seer's WoodMember Posts: 711 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2016
  • NiaNia TrashyMember Posts: 81 ✭✭✭
    Emelle said:

    (@Nia Hi am a huge Buffy fan let's be friends!)

    image
    Emelle
  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I-'-m-m-a-d-,-b-u-t-t-h-a-t-i-s-n-o-t-n-e-w-s-.
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I'll still never forget the first time I saw Toz throwing hammers."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I freaked out and thought they had somehow managed to pull me into them."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "So I tumbled away from my team and into theirs."


    Trager
  • ZsadistZsadist Member Posts: 815 ✭✭✭✭
    Rasani said:

    It isn't just crafting that this happens in, it happens in anything that's going to outlive a character description. A bad room will stay bad until the city shells out gold to fix the issue. Those rooms, and your designs, are going to be there for a long time and the game itself is old.


    I'm not a crafter with the exception of sending up my artifacts to be customized (which I'm pretty sure completely bypasses the Crafters Guild), but here's my take on this.


    There's a difference between ROOM crafting and ITEM crafting. A room is going to be around until the game is dead, the admins close off that room, the room is shut down, or as you said, the room is paid to get changed again. So yes, having super strict guidelines for rooms is absolutely acceptable.


    The thing with item crafting is that its NOT going to be there forever. Every design has a decay time. Its why you have to pay to keep your designs active. If so much time has passed, I'm relatively certain, that the design is ultimately deleted/erased/archived away from the public view (which at that point doesn't matter anymore). Additionally, any item crafted is ALSO going to have a decay time, unless you pay to have it artifacted... which I don't see many people doing. That said, the longest an item will be around for is what.... 2 months? After that, the item poofs and the player has to be some new items.


    Being a little more relaxed on item designs WILL NOT damage the game or the immersion factors in any way, so long as a specific blanket standard is set in place. If anything, a set standard that uses COMMON, ACCEPTED, and non-arguable rules would be more than acceptable. The moment you start getting into high end grammar rules (that people typically don't understand or it takes -multiple- people to explain it, and even then is not an agreed upon concensus because opinions) and become a grammar nazi, is when people typically start having a problem.
    (Oasis): Benedicto says, "There was like 0.5 seconds between "Oh hey, they're in area. That was quick." and "OMFG THEY'RE IN THE AREA STAHP STAHP!""


    NiaTragerXandrenMariena
  • RasaniRasani Member Posts: 119 ✭✭✭
    Zsadist said:

    Rasani said:

    It isn't just crafting that this happens in, it happens in anything that's going to outlive a character description. A bad room will stay bad until the city shells out gold to fix the issue. Those rooms, and your designs, are going to be there for a long time and the game itself is old.


    I'm not a crafter with the exception of sending up my artifacts to be customized (which I'm pretty sure completely bypasses the Crafters Guild), but here's my take on this.


    There's a difference between ROOM crafting and ITEM crafting. A room is going to be around until the game is dead, the admins close off that room, the room is shut down, or as you said, the room is paid to get changed again. So yes, having super strict guidelines for rooms is absolutely acceptable.


    The thing with item crafting is that its NOT going to be there forever. Every design has a decay time. Its why you have to pay to keep your designs active. If so much time has passed, I'm relatively certain, that the design is ultimately deleted/erased/archived away from the public view (which at that point doesn't matter anymore). Additionally, any item crafted is ALSO going to have a decay time, unless you pay to have it artifacted... which I don't see many people doing. That said, the longest an item will be around for is what.... 2 months? After that, the item poofs and the player has to be some new items.


    Being a little more relaxed on item designs WILL NOT damage the game or the immersion factors in any way, so long as a specific blanket standard is set in place. If anything, a set standard that uses COMMON, ACCEPTED, and non-arguable rules would be more than acceptable. The moment you start getting into high end grammar rules (that people typically don't understand or it takes -multiple- people to explain it, and even then is not an agreed upon concensus because opinions) and become a grammar nazi, is when people typically start having a problem.
    I would agree if it weren't for autopay and perming! There are PLENTY of designs that are still around that aren't going to decay because people made it a point to make sure they didn't! If crafting were more like a character description, meaning easy to fix if something were wrong, I'd say go nuts, but it isn't super easy to fix the designs and it usually requires either going back into the Queue, which is a pain for everyone involved, or admin intervention.

    I don't know if there's a way to meet in the middle, because I don't know what exactly the upkeep of the game entails. Games are HARD to deal with/make/upkeep, but I only know the work with visual games, as stated above. Text games may be a totally different ballpark, I really don't know.
  • ZsadistZsadist Member Posts: 815 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2016
    Rasani said:

    I would agree if it weren't for autopay and perming! There are PLENTY of designs that are still around that aren't going to decay because people made it a point to make sure they didn't! If crafting were more like a character description, meaning easy to fix if something were wrong, I'd say go nuts, but it isn't super easy to fix the designs and it usually requires either going back into the Queue, which is a pain for everyone involved, or admin intervention.

    Autopay is only a thing so long as you stay active and have the gold to keep paying for it. Not to mention, autopay was only made a thing within the last year... so for the past 14 years, Aetolia has probably lost HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS, of item designs. So while yes, people have done their best to make sure a design doesn't decay, the fact is when the player quits (and eventually they do), the design poofs as well after a time so long as its not perma'd. And even if it IS perma'd, if the character quits and isn't around to make it, the items in circulation STILL POOF after a time.

    This doesn't change anything from my previous post, in that there should still be a set standard that cannot be argued, regardless of education, region, or upbringing.
    (Oasis): Benedicto says, "There was like 0.5 seconds between "Oh hey, they're in area. That was quick." and "OMFG THEY'RE IN THE AREA STAHP STAHP!""


    Xandren
  • NiaNia TrashyMember Posts: 81 ✭✭✭
    With the recent post made to the Crafts board, I just want to say thank you to @Becue and all parties involved for giving this thread their consideration. It shows an open-minded approach to administration and I wholeheartedly appreciate it.
    Emelle
  • AlexinaAlexina the Haunted Soul Member Posts: 851 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am sorry that you feel the difference between laying and lying is a nuanced subtletly in the English language. I personally am not an English professer, and I understand the difference between the two.

    Anyway, the obvious reason we're allowing volunteers to have any sway over our crafting submissions is twofold; one, it saves the admin a lot of time and effort having to dedicate someone to crafting (as far as I know, all designs in Achaea are approved by non-mortals), and two, without some sort of check in place, you would see all sorts of crazy in the game. There's such a huge degree of grammatical and spelling errors and to be fair, not everything falls under the 'elitism' bracket when rejected. I don't think "they're" and "there" are interchangeable. I don't think "do" and "does" are interchangeable.

    Having basic crafting standards in place is a good thing for everyone. If there is an issue with nitpicking or discrimination, then bring it up to the admins via the issue command, because everyone needs to be able to participate in the crafting system.
    image
  • TenshyoTenshyo Member Posts: 376 ✭✭✭
    I avoided this thread for the majority of it's life, so bear with me.


    @Alexina I think that's what the underlying issue is/was is it seemed that most rejections were nitpick/style differences.

    While I have had my own personal dislike of the crafting system since the Great Destruction of 2015, does this change necessarily affect my willingness to craft extensively? Not at all. I'm still -very- hesitant about submitting anything.

    More - while I admit I'm not the most grammatically correct all the time - I feel a bit of.. loss on at least the lying/laying change -- Which I admit I've used lying instead of laying because I don't know. It's aesthetically pleasing to the eye and rolls off the tongue, but this does not mean it is correct.


    Do I think this change may help spur more creativity again from a larger base of players? I can't honestly answer that question.

    Nia
  • EmelleEmelle the Seer Seer's WoodMember Posts: 711 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think what we're trying to achieve is to avoid splitting hairs over things that are relatively inconsequential for non-professional writing, while maintaining a decent level of quality in our designs.
    Nia
  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher Member Posts: 1,808 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I feel like a good portion of this thread is self evidence towards the original premise. Also if you wish to see nitpicking, just look back to any argument for scotch, bourbon, and champagne being rejectable for crafters yet existing in game.

    So I suppose my only addition to this thread is this; @Nia don't let people wear you down about game mechanics that are supposed to be fun for you. In the end, you'll burn out and they won't give a unicorns.
    image
    Nia
  • EmelleEmelle the Seer Seer's WoodMember Posts: 711 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For posterity, the latest Crafts news, as a direct result of the conversation in this thread:
    CRAFTS NEWS #738
    Date: 10/12/2016 at 2:47
    From: Becue, the Crafter
    To : Everyone
    Subj: Grammar and Approval update

    Hello Crafters and Approvers!

    After some review and discussion (aided by Emelle!), HELP GRAMMAR has been updated.

    There are a few changes and clarifications that need to be made going forward, which hopefully will ease a few stresses on both parties.

    - Collective nouns are treated as singular when they are acting in unison (a column of buttons lines, a pair of boots sits, etc).

    - Collective nouns are treated as plural when they are acting in multiple or varied ways (the row of buttons are unevenly secured or missing, the pairs of shoes are all aligned in a row, etc).

    - Lies vs. Lays, Fewer vs. Lesser, etc, will no longer be enforced one way or another, as they have become a confusing colloquial mess.

    - We will no longer reject for the nuances of comma splices (unless it is significantly impeding comprehension of the design).
    Trager
  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oh that's, interesting.
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I'll still never forget the first time I saw Toz throwing hammers."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I freaked out and thought they had somehow managed to pull me into them."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "So I tumbled away from my team and into theirs."


    Mazarine
  • IrruelIrruel Member Posts: 650 ✭✭✭✭
    Bad punctuation = poorly made clothing. Don't buy it; the stitching is crooked and it will probably just fall apart.

    In other words, a better writer can charge more. So chill, because relaxed rules don't stop individuals from writing well and standing out from the pack.

    NiaIshin
  • TeaniTeani Evening Sky SwedenMember Posts: 1,854 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It would actually be sort of fun if something, deemed by peers depending on quality of writing, had different decay times. However, it's not really feasible because people tend to be biased as unicorns.



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