Class Resources/Aishia M-M-MULTIPOSTS!!

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  • TrikalTrikal Member Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    @Seir sorry I meant to be openly aggressive.

    Come combat against me so I can judge weather or not you know anything about PvP

    I'm unassured based on how much you fight at your awareness for what is better, you certainly don't fight in Aetolia, I don't know if you do in "these other games," and I am directly discussing 1v1, group fighting mechanics rarely come into something of willpower and endurance unless one group is just regularly smashing the other in a long long fight, but I've never run out of willpower or endurance during even the longest of lesser, only during actual close and competitive 1v1's is this the case, and in that case, it makes the fight. Removing it basically removes something from the top tier of PvP, adds nothing. Also removes options of trying to boost yourself in certain classes for a short period, if you want to remove it and limit those classes to what they typically do, you're not really changing anything. I see no point. You've yet to give any reason for why it's good to not have it other than you don't think about it I guess.
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2016
    Trikal said:

    @Seir sorry I meant to be openly aggressive.

    Come combat against me so I can judge weather or not you know anything about PvP

    I'm unassured based on how much you fight at your awareness for what is better, you certainly don't fight in Aetolia, I don't know if you do in "these other games," and I am directly discussing 1v1, group fighting mechanics rarely come into something of willpower and endurance unless one group is just regularly smashing the other in a long long fight, but I've never run out of willpower or endurance during even the longest of lesser, only during actual close and competitive 1v1's is this the case, and in that case, it makes the fight. Removing it basically removes something from the top tier of PvP, adds nothing. Also removes options of trying to boost yourself in certain classes for a short period, if you want to remove it and limit those classes to what they typically do, you're not really changing anything. I see no point. You've yet to give any reason for why it's good to not have it other than you don't think about it I guess.

    Well, if you're getting aggressive over mechanics in a text-based game, that's your choice.

    As I said, I'll classlead it. If I truly know nothing, the idea will get thrown out. If it gets accepted, just as the eventual implementation of a greater level of server side curing did, I guess I'll know what I'm talking about despite not being as active in combat here.
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2016
    I think shaman really runs in to problems when you start considering things like tethering and whispers and stuff which almost become unusable unless you turn oaths off. I've mostly just never used them as a result. I mean I don't know if you know how oaths work but basically you get 1 for free, 2 costs 15, and every oath after that DOUBLES so 15 for 2 30 for 3 60 for 4. 120 for 5. I usually try to only use 3-4 and I have like every arti to boost wp/wp regen, but even that puts you usually at a steady decline especially once you start considering offensive drains.

    It's safe to say you're not fighting at even base level shaman without at LEAST 3 oaths. They're really not above and beyond bonuses for shaman, they're what we have instead of lock breakers and active heals that work past hinders. (They're pretty nerfy now to begin with, elder shaman really did not need nerfing I def feel majored boned over by that change) Honestly think with how shaman is now panacea needs to work like bloodboil.

    A shaman without enhanced greenfoot and wp regen and trans everything is just unicorned in the horn.

    Willpower regen every 4 seconds
    ------------------------------
    Base: 6
    Racial regen: 8
    Statpack: 6
    Living bonus: 2
    Philosophy Miniskill: 12
    ------------------------------
    Total: 34
    Willpower drain every 4 seconds
    ------------------------------
    Oaths: 30
    Spiritbond: 5
    ------------------------------
    Total: 35
    ------------------------------
    Net regen: -1

    Like that's just 3 oaths with no "extra" defs except spiritbond. Factor in active drains from attacking, any attacks that might drain WP, the obvious desire for a fourth oath against some classes. And that's with every conceivable bonus minus like shrine regen.

    I mean I agree that spreading overgrowth to like 5+ rooms should screw you over, stuff like that is just extenuating.

    ok I did that without my WP regen arti on so I might have gave the wrong impression tho closer to the right one for a regular shaman without tons of credits to blow woops

    I'm not even majorly arguing here tho! To be fair to ME the thing that bothers me more is that I have to deal with this and other classes don't.
    Post edited by Tedrunai on




  • TedrunaiTedrunai Member, Immortal Posts: 114 Immortal
    Hey guys there's this nifty thing called the edit button so you don't have to quadruple post.
    Illidan
  • TrikalTrikal Member Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    @Aishia Looks like a syssin with weaving on.
    Illidan
  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I said it years ago when i was participating in those knockout Tournaments. Even in like a 2 minute fight, a good chunk of my willpower would be gone. That's why there was that infamous knockout with me and Moirean in the end of it, and she kept on running away nonstop until my willpower ran out in like 5 minutes. It was pretty irritating. But then I bought the medicine bag and all my problems went away. I'd pop bullseyes after each opponent after that, and once again if it lasted longer than 9 minutes before battle hunger kicked in to top off. 
                                    
                 Faaaaaaaaaaabulous!                                          Adorable!                                                               UHMAYZING!

    Calipso has been slain by the divine might of Razmael, the Synthesist.

    Illidan said: You already knew that there's some dumb-as-unicorns attention mongering wanna-be troll going around and robbing people.
    Calipso said: For the first time on the forums, Im actually 100% in agreement with Illidan.
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2016
    Trikal said:

    @Aishia Looks like a syssin with weaving on.

    Which is one arguably non-essential defense for Syssin versus a lot of skills that are near mandatory for her to use in order to just adequately pursue her offense and basic defensive utility.

    The two aren't really comparable at all.
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Multi posting is a part of my personality.




    TedrunaiSeir
  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Aishia said:

    Multi posting is a part of my multiple personalities.

                                    
                 Faaaaaaaaaaabulous!                                          Adorable!                                                               UHMAYZING!

    Calipso has been slain by the divine might of Razmael, the Synthesist.

    Illidan said: You already knew that there's some dumb-as-unicorns attention mongering wanna-be troll going around and robbing people.
    Calipso said: For the first time on the forums, Im actually 100% in agreement with Illidan.
    SeirHavenTrager
  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai Member Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2016
    Snip
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



  • TrikalTrikal Member Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    Seir said:

    Trikal said:

    @Aishia Looks like a syssin with weaving on.

    Which is one arguably non-essential defense for Syssin versus a lot of skills that are near mandatory for her to use in order to just adequately pursue her offense and basic defensive utility.

    The two aren't really comparable at all.
    Which is why I don't think your opinion carries much weight.
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2016
    Trikal said:

    Seir said:

    Trikal said:

    @Aishia Looks like a syssin with weaving on.

    Which is one arguably non-essential defense for Syssin versus a lot of skills that are near mandatory for her to use in order to just adequately pursue her offense and basic defensive utility.

    The two aren't really comparable at all.
    Which is why I don't think your opinion carries much weight.
    No, it's more like that you just continue to use false equivalence and appeal to accomplishment in nearly all of your arguments and, failing that, you resort to abrasiveness against a poster rather than backing up your argument. Unsurprisingly, you've done this multiple times already.

    Realistically, Weaving is nowhere close to the amount of defenses that a Shaman has to maintain just to have defensive utility and pursue their offense. You don't even need to use Weaving against some classes. Illidan and Aishia have both already provided contextual evidence elaborating that Shaman's willpower drain is excessive by comparison to other classes. The point that I'm trying to make is that there is no point for their drain to be on such a level.

    Honestly, there isn't much of an argument to be made for the existence of willpower and endurance. The one legitimate argument I've heard is that there's the concern that fights might go on for too long, but we have an example with the Hunting Grounds of how battle fever addresses that issue and it can be a mechanic expanded to prolonged fights in general. The argument of, "Well, we don't need to dumb down combat any more than we already have" is baseless. There's no correlation between the removal of endurance and willpower and the "dumbing down" of PK in the places that the vitals have been removed. It's just removing an arbitrary vital that makes no sense as to why some classes can fight for longer than others. The other argument in that it limits what is "overpowered" is also completely subjective and based on perspective rather than anything else. Edit: I'll even provide an example: I have the Rite of Healing as utility and it provides an AoE aff cure for myself and every ally in the room. Shamans have the Oath of Tranquility, which has a mana and will cost associated with it. Again, arbitrary. Yes, the classes are different, but we can't really make the argument that the mechanic is being limited because it's "overpowered" when my passives have no willpower cost for maintaining them.
  • TrikalTrikal Member Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    Sorry, weaving is the only defense Syssin has and it's easily as required as the oaths that shamans use, things like elder shaman:
    [Oath of the Elder Shaman]:
    Grants foresight to the Shaman, giving them a 8% chance to resist mental afflictions.

    8% across ALL mental affs and no cooldown. I've seen elder shaman block 3 affs in a single attack, multiple times.

    Weaving 8% chance increase to dodge. Which has a cooldown so it can't happen twice in a single attack round.

    That right there is comparable.

    Oh and that's free for the shaman, a comparable defense.

    Now add in:

    [Oath of Tranquility]:
    Enhances healing, causing overgrowth/forest rooms to periodically heal an affliction.

    I'd use that, so now we're up to 1/2 of syssin's REQUIRED willpower consumption against any class that uses attacks that can be dodged (vampire/syssin/templar/indorani/carnifex/sciomancer/ascendril/teradrim/sentinel)

    Sure shaman doesn't have a sure fire lockbreaker that syssin has, but it does have active cures it can also use to reduce aff pressure, combined with passive things to reduce aff pressure that right now I'm looking at only 15 willpower / 4 sec consumption.

    Speaking from experience of having hundreds upon hundreds of fights over the past year, weaving is essential to use in PvP, I haven't fought as Shaman, and I assume at least 3 of their oaths depending on the class their fighting are essential as well. I don't see how that's not a comparison that's valid. Shaman I'm sure would LOVE to use all their oaths all the time, makes life easy, but it isn't required, and it forces them to make a decision on which ones they want to use and when, with costs involved. Making a calculation to choose what you want allows for you to put up certain oaths for certain things without having to be forced to only using 3 at any one time if say something like willpower was removed.

    Sorry that I'm speaking from experience and not just the theory that you've envisioned. You've yet to make any argument other than other games don't have this mechanic so we don't need it either, because your inexperience has shown you no reason for it to exist. When experienced people are telling you that there is use for it and you refuse to listen I don't really know what to say.
    ZsadistIshin
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2016
    Edit: Was posting when the mod post was made. Moving on.
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm more or less done!




  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah, I am as well at this point. I had a long reply, but it's not really worth it. Agree to disagree.
    Ingram
  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker VirginiaMember, Guildmaster Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've run out of willpower and basically endurance as well a few times back when I did actively fight. Did it as a Syssin and Lycan both over the course of longer 1v1 fights. In a group fight I never lived long enough to see it dip below 99%, and if I did we had long since won. I have wp/end regen and I'm endgame. With tattoos.

    Tbh at the point where you're running out of/running someone out of wp/end then you've taken the game to the next level completely and added yet another dimension in which combat can be fought. The long game. At that point it's about who is prepared(luckily or purposefully) and reacts first to eat that bulleye/thingie.
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    learn.
    -Benjamin Franklin
    Didi
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