Class Resources/Aishia M-M-MULTIPOSTS!!

BufordBuford Member, Immortal Posts: 280 Immortal
This discussion was created from comments split from: Artifact ideas.
«1

Comments

  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    An artifact that expands Angel Power. 5000 is really, really low. Devotion and Spark are reasonable, but the 5000 Angel power tends to vanish really quickly and losing the angel is far more debilitating towards a Luminary offense than Devotion.
  • RasharRashar Member Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You can empower an angel fairly easily though. A few seconds of lull and you can completely recharge it.
    Vorador
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2016
    Rashar said:

    You can empower an angel fairly easily though. A few seconds of lull and you can completely recharge it.

    It can run out quickly during the course of a fight is what I'm saying. Short of spamming myself, I also don't have a way of easily tracking it like Devotion and Spark. It's fairly difficult managing three different resources and Devotion and Spark will run out, but you usually have enough to safely utilize during the course of one long fight or two fights before you have to recharge. With passives running on an angel plus saps, spiritwracks, etc, you'll run out of power very fast. Recharging the angel from nearly empty to full was somewhere in the ballpark of 10+ recharges, which is 20 seconds of downtime during a fight. More than enough to make or break.

    Even if it is possible to recharge it, it's not really an argument against something that offers an expansion to the amount of power that an angel has anyway.
  • VaskarVaskar Member Posts: 57 ✭✭✭
    Seraph power and devotion and essence and souls and spark and all that crap is awful, anyways. It's basically just "Despite all classes being balanced to fight each other, we've decided that some classes don't get to fight as long as other classes because unicorns you that's why."

    If a class isn't balanced with infinite energy/souls/whatever, it isn't balanced at all.
  • TedrunaiTedrunai Member, Immortal Posts: 114 Immortal
    This isn't a pure PK game, mechanics like that lend flavour and themes to classes. Ripping out hearts for essence, taking care of your Angel, harvesting souls, practicing/grading Tekura, etc are core parts of their respective class identities. Mechanics like that, while they can be annoying, provide some atmosphere to the game and in using those classes. They also don't unbalance the PvP capabilities of the classes in any big way (the days of 60 minute stalemates are, hopefully, over). In a pure PK setting sure those restrictions shouldn't be there and I'm sure you could RP out all that crap but at the end of the day mechanics are what really drives home the feel of those classes. Without them I personally think those classes would lose some part of their flavour.

    That being said #freevampires #killthenoonsun.
    Zsadist
  • AtalkezAtalkez United StatesMember Posts: 6
    Tedrunai said:

    This isn't a pure PK game, mechanics like that lend flavour and themes to classes. Ripping out hearts for essence, taking care of your Angel, harvesting souls, practicing/grading Tekura, etc are core parts of their respective class identities. Mechanics like that, while they can be annoying, provide some atmosphere to the game and in using those classes. They also don't unbalance the PvP capabilities of the classes in any big way (the days of 60 minute stalemates are, hopefully, over). In a pure PK setting sure those restrictions shouldn't be there and I'm sure you could RP out all that crap but at the end of the day mechanics are what really drives home the feel of those classes. Without them I personally think those classes would lose some part of their flavour.

    That being said #freevampires #killthenoonsun.

    While true, I think any instance where an unnecessary burden is put on the player to 'play the game' is a bit illogical.

    At the end of the day, a game is a game, and it should be fun and fairly convenient to play. Chores like upkeep like this are a big negative for classes built around those pools.
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2016
    Atalkez said:

    Tedrunai said:

    This isn't a pure PK game, mechanics like that lend flavour and themes to classes. Ripping out hearts for essence, taking care of your Angel, harvesting souls, practicing/grading Tekura, etc are core parts of their respective class identities. Mechanics like that, while they can be annoying, provide some atmosphere to the game and in using those classes. They also don't unbalance the PvP capabilities of the classes in any big way (the days of 60 minute stalemates are, hopefully, over). In a pure PK setting sure those restrictions shouldn't be there and I'm sure you could RP out all that crap but at the end of the day mechanics are what really drives home the feel of those classes. Without them I personally think those classes would lose some part of their flavour.

    That being said #freevampires #killthenoonsun.

    While true, I think any instance where an unnecessary burden is put on the player to 'play the game' is a bit illogical.

    At the end of the day, a game is a game, and it should be fun and fairly convenient to play. Chores like upkeep like this are a big negative for classes built around those pools.
    Yeah, I have no problem with tending to my angel. If a fight is done and she needs power, I'll give it. I don't even have a problem with Devotion and Spark because they're manageable. However, the issue is that angel power drains at a very quick rate when I'm just pursuing my normal offense or using basic utility. Using Angel Power or Fortify gets repetitive very quickly (and isn't particularly good in the middle of a fight), so an artifact that boosts it (just like we have the QoL artifacts for Spark and Devotion) would go a long way.
  • VaskarVaskar Member Posts: 57 ✭✭✭
    Tedrunai said:

    This isn't a pure PK game, mechanics like that lend flavour and themes to classes. Ripping out hearts for essence, taking care of your Angel, harvesting souls, practicing/grading Tekura, etc are core parts of their respective class identities. Mechanics like that, while they can be annoying, provide some atmosphere to the game and in using those classes.

    What kind of atmosphere? The need to run to a graveyard every day, type "fillgem", and then AFK for 4 minutes? The atmosphere where a Teradrim can fight all day but you need to bum hearts after a few losses?

    There are ways to keep the atmospwhere while removing the worst parts of micromanagement that those resources require.
  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai Member Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Soul resource attached to Carnifex is actually one of the easier resources in the game to actively get. Sure, you don't get a huge burst from things like player corpses (hearts for essence, unicorns tons of blood for vampires), but you have a fairly decent sized pool and the 4 minutes it takes to refill it from max is...well, it's 4 minutes (if that? I seriously feel like that's an exaggeration).

    Honestly guys, feels like you're complaining just because you can.
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



    AtrapoemaIshinJensen
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I mean I get pretty salty about willpower restraints and stuff too. Like why some classes just can't last as long as others is a serious problem. Most old classes can pretty much just fight forever.




  • VaskarVaskar Member Posts: 57 ✭✭✭
    Draiman said:

    The Soul resource attached to Carnifex is actually one of the easier resources in the game to actively get. Sure, you don't get a huge burst from things like player corpses (hearts for essence, unicorns tons of blood for vampires), but you have a fairly decent sized pool and the 4 minutes it takes to refill it from max is...well, it's 4 minutes (if that? I seriously feel like that's an exaggeration).

    Honestly guys, feels like you're complaining just because you can.

    A few days back I timed it from 0 to 12k and it's roughly 6 minutes(depending on wraith appearance rates).

    Anyways, I look at it sort of like this: It's trivially easy to get, but the method you get it through is an irritating frustrating time sink with no challenge or no real atmospheric/RP value. You summon souls out of the thin air and then you spam soul cull/soul strike for 5 minutes. It's absolutely awful to do manually if you're a new player who doesn't automate it, and it's a 5-minute tabout if you do.

    So it's awful. You could add way more atmosphere if you just turned it into a short ritual that people would actually pay attention to as opposed to "a bunch of souls appear! you hit them with your bardiche!" every 3.72 seconds for a few minutes.
    Xenia
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2016
    I think if any unnecessary resource truly needs to go, and two games have already done this to good success, it's endurance and willpower.

    In reality, they don't really do much except create fights of attrition. And, yes, while it's good that fights can eventually have their end. I don't particularly see the value in them ending because of a largely pointless resource pool. The only real argument I can see for endurance and willpower is that they act as a means of limiting someone from bashing for extreme periods of time, but people are already able to do so and it doesn't take much to recover WP/EN.

    Edit: Btw, this should probably be split into its own topic now in ideas since it's off topic.

    Edit 2: I'm also very much willing to come up with ideas for substitute mechanics on tattoos and abilities that resolve around restoring or enhancing those two resource pools if it means getting rid of them.
  • ZsadistZsadist Member Posts: 815 ✭✭✭✭
    Seir said:

    I think if any unnecessary resource truly needs to go, and two games have already done this to good success, it's endurance and willpower.

    In reality, they don't really do much except create fights of attrition. And, yes, while it's good that fights can eventually have their end. I don't particularly see the value in them ending because of a largely pointless resource pool. The only real argument I can see for endurance and willpower is that they act as a means of limiting someone from bashing for extreme periods of time, but people are already able to do so and it doesn't take much to recover WP/EN.

    Edit: Btw, this should probably be split into its own topic now in ideas since it's off topic.

    Edit 2: I'm also very much willing to come up with ideas for substitute mechanics on tattoos and abilities that resolve around restoring or enhancing those two resource pools if it means getting rid of them.

    This would be almost impossible to balance. Shamans rely heavily on willpower and the fact that there are 4 resources to pull from stops certain classes like Shamans (i'm sure there are others) from getting completely railroaded by forcing them to get balanced with mana pressure. Because alternatively, if you got rid of willpower use and forced all Shaman Oaths to be mana heavy instead of willpower heavy, I'm just going to wait until you burn yourself and annihilate you in 15s. Or a Luminary can just sit there and sap you til you're in Absolve range. Same thing with Teradrim when we have sand defences up (its a costly willpower drain, especially with multiple rooms sanded).
    (Oasis): Benedicto says, "There was like 0.5 seconds between "Oh hey, they're in area. That was quick." and "OMFG THEY'RE IN THE AREA STAHP STAHP!""


  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wouldn't go as far as to say that it'd be impossible to balance, but it'd take some work if they were removed. Not to mention, it'd go a long way in helping the whole 'why are there classes that can outlast others for a longer time when it doesn't really make sense'. It's all rather arbitrary, really.
  • TrikalTrikal Member Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    Except in most cases it does make sense, the classes that aren't lasting long is because they're running many many strong things, so they can't last as long because they're in a boosted OP state. Running all of Shaman oaths should exhaust you quickly. Sanding an entire area should exhaust you quickly. Some classes don't have the OP mechanic, so the imbalance is that those classes don't have the restrictions they should, not the other way around. Fights of attrition are dumb, agreed, but having limiting factors on things is good, and basing them on endurance or willpower gives more flexibility then just saying "You can only have 3 oaths active" or "You can only sand three rooms".
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Eh shaman runs out pretty quickly even with 3 oaths and basic defenses and 1 or 2 rooms of overgrowth.




  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2016
    Trikal said:

    Except in most cases it does make sense, the classes that aren't lasting long is because they're running many many strong things, so they can't last as long because they're in a boosted OP state. Running all of Shaman oaths should exhaust you quickly. Sanding an entire area should exhaust you quickly. Some classes don't have the OP mechanic, so the imbalance is that those classes don't have the restrictions they should, not the other way around. Fights of attrition are dumb, agreed, but having limiting factors on things is good, and basing them on endurance or willpower gives more flexibility then just saying "You can only have 3 oaths active" or "You can only sand three rooms".

    It's not really "flexibility". Most Shamans are generally going to be running the same oaths and in reality, if you made some of those oaths permanent, limit them to being able to only run a certain amount at a time, and just put a hard limit on how many rooms of overgrowth that a Shaman can run at a time, there'd be no real visible difference. As @Vaskar said: "If a class isn't balanced with infinite energy/souls/whatever, it isn't balanced at all". The same argument works for willpower and endurance.

    I ultimately think that the argument of what constitutes an OP mechanic is always going to be subjective as well. Syssin is capable of dishing out a very effective affliction-based offense and has great utility options as well that are subjectively better than what a Shaman has depending on who you ask. However, A Syssin's main drain is in the form of willpower, but it's not immediately noticeable. I can also make the argument that it doesn't make sense that Phase has a completely negligible drain in endurance, but simultaneously allows you to do as much as you can do in it while Lightform/Blackwind have a substantial increase in how much willpower is being drained and are far more limited as to what you can do. It doesn't really make sense and seems fairly arbitrary in its application.

    The only time attrition should come into play between two individuals is if one of them runs out of supplies.
  • TrikalTrikal Member Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    Just because there's no visible difference to the way the 2 people who play it now use it doesn't mean there's no difference to how the class CAN be played. You'd still be removing options from people. I don't understand everyone's need/drive to dumb down the pk mechanics more and more. Willpower drain is a viable tactic for the mage classes against people who're going to try and fight them all out. It opens that option up, while removing it doesn't add anything to the game. In most scenarios willpower and endurance management are negligible, but when they're not you need to pay attention to what they are. Monk has similar management issues, and there are times when they'd want to use both leg block and pinch block, but maybe not all the time because it's expensive to have those both running during an entire fight. If you remove the ability to limit based on endurance/willpower you're forcing that class to make a decision on which single block they can have active, instead of allowing them to be more versatile.

    The only time attrition comes into play and should come into play is when one person is pushing hard for attrition to be a thing. As far as supplies go, if you run out of supplies before you can kill someone, you weren't prepared for the fight and deserve to die for it. You can't attrition herbs against a competent fighter before they can kill you. Period. You can attrition willpower or endurance if you work towards it, it's a reasonable kill tactic that requires you to have a long fight, but it's still a tactic that removing just will lead to more hours and hours long fights. Draiman and I could fight syssin vs mage for 3 hours and never kill each other if willpower wasn't a thing.
    DraimanFeirenz
  • TrikalTrikal Member Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    While we're at it lets remove health and mana too, since using attrition to kill someone from health or mana is just as dumb as doing it to endurance or willpower. Instakills only.
    HavenDraimanIllidanJensen
  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai Member Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2016
    Totally agree. Supplies like bullseye's, Phoenix hearts, essence caps, spirit bulbs, etc.

    Seriously though, you can't make those arguments. The drain isn't negligible for phase or weaving at inept philo/fitness and level 80 without a mountain tat or owl tat. Boom now someone is considering trying to trans 1-2 mini's, consider an arti tat, transing tattoos, buying stamps, or a chalice to get to end game faster, maybe some chocolates, and Razmael gets to make his house payment and keep his job.  

    Souls, essence, yadda, are not limiting factors in 1v1 unless your class has terrible lock down or two bads are fighting each other. Going in unprepared is your fault.

    ETA: Neither is wp/end. Do everyone a favor and but the seemingly UNLIMITED supply of hearts/bullseye's out there. 

    Group is a whole different story and you could argue that anyone just using 2 skillsets is just as efficient as the tri trans dude.



    Sorry for the chaotic post, on my phone, proof reading is annoying, but I'm so against this it hurts. And I'm a vampire main ffs.

    Edit 2: holy fk ninja'd by Trikal by like 20 minutes. Phone forums is so hard :(
    Post edited by Draiman on
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



    TrikalDidi
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think there's a hugely stark difference though there are some classes that can throw up every detection, passive, room effect, etc, and NOT drain down at all vs some who can utilize a modest amount of their skillset and actually be drained right out.




    Seir
  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai Member Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's what classleads are for. 
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



    TrikalTragerIllidan
  • TragerTrager Raiding your underwear drawer.Member Posts: 568 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Aishia,

    When you reach that point of low WP, are you throwing your quarterstaff at them to keep up offensive pressure? You advised me to give it a shot once upon a time, and I got to say, best change I -ever- made.

    TrikalIllidan
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2016
    Trikal said:

    Just because there's no visible difference to the way the 2 people who play it now use it doesn't mean there's no difference to how the class CAN be played. You'd still be removing options from people. I don't understand everyone's need/drive to dumb down the pk mechanics more and more. Willpower drain is a viable tactic for the mage classes against people who're going to try and fight them all out. It opens that option up, while removing it doesn't add anything to the game. In most scenarios willpower and endurance management are negligible, but when they're not you need to pay attention to what they are. Monk has similar management issues, and there are times when they'd want to use both leg block and pinch block, but maybe not all the time because it's expensive to have those both running during an entire fight. If you remove the ability to limit based on endurance/willpower you're forcing that class to make a decision on which single block they can have active, instead of allowing them to be more versatile.

    The only time attrition comes into play and should come into play is when one person is pushing hard for attrition to be a thing. As far as supplies go, if you run out of supplies before you can kill someone, you weren't prepared for the fight and deserve to die for it. You can't attrition herbs against a competent fighter before they can kill you. Period. You can attrition willpower or endurance if you work towards it, it's a reasonable kill tactic that requires you to have a long fight, but it's still a tactic that removing just will lead to more hours and hours long fights. Draiman and I could fight syssin vs mage for 3 hours and never kill each other if willpower wasn't a thing.

    No one is really dumbing down the PK mechanics by removing trivial resources like willpower and endurance. If that was the case, the other games that have done it would be suffering for it. Lo and behold, they haven't. Willpower drain may also be a "viable" tactic, but saying that it offers anything constructive to the PK scene is kind of a stretch, if not a huge one. It's pretty much me saying that if I just sit there and shield forever against a vampire, they'll eventually run out of blood and I win. Not really conductive to a positive PK atmosphere.

    I also think that there's some confusion between the reality of choice that you're offered. There will always be a meta in terms of what abilities are effective and what isn't. Half of the stances that Monk has are ultimately pointless, but they're there anyway as a "choice". Reality also is, even if a Monk utilized both pinch and leg block at the same time, they probably still wouldn't be that overbearing. Hell, if you DID force them to make a choice, I'd argue that you're actually making PvP a more nuanced field by forcing people to utilize competitive abilities for the situations that suit them best, which kind of runs contrary to what you're arguing. Also, if you're getting "hours" and "hours" of long fights, that suggests a balance issue with classes being either unable to pursue an effective kill route or some classes being too strong defensively. The argument that somehow endurance and willpower draining is the effective, appropriate answer to that kind of situation is not really a positive one and one that you should actively seek to change. Given that other games have gotten rid of both endurance and willpower to great success, I'm probably going to have to chalk up a lot of these fears to be relatively baseless in fact when there are plenty of successful examples as is.

    On a slightly unrelated tangent, I'm having a strong sense of deja vu when I suggested a long time ago that Aetolia make our first aid system akin to Imperian's server-side curing and I was immediately lambasted by folks who would say that it would "end PvP as we know it", "simplify things too much", etc. Here we are and the sky hasn't fallen and it has become easier for people to get introduced into PvP.

    @Draiman: We don't balance around people who have Inept or anything like that anyway. We balance around people being transcendent in their skill sets. As someone with Trans Fitness, I can stay indefinitely phased pretty much forever and endurance never once will become a concern.

    @Trikal: Comparing health and mana to endurance and willpower is an apples and oranges comparison. Health and mana are actually critical vitals. Endurance and willpower are not. All they really do is just create fights of attrition where one class will have an advantage over the other because of completely arbitrary determinations on skills and respective drain.

    In any event, I'm not really buying the idea that the sky is going to fall if we removed endurance and willpower because it hasn't in any of the other games that did it. Just like the sky didn't fall and PvP didn't magically become simplified just because we made first aid on a level comparable to server-side curing elsewhere.

    Edit: If long fights are a concern, expand the battle hunger mechanic to be utilized outside of the Hunting Grounds.
    Post edited by Seir on
  • ZsadistZsadist Member Posts: 815 ✭✭✭✭
    That's the thing I don't think you're understanding Seir. Attrition fights are sometimes a very viable and very realistic tactic. Especially if you're going against someone with great curing and know their abilities are very taxing one pool or another. Example: You KNOW, FOR A FACT, that a vampire relies on blood. You KNOW, FOR A FACT, that dwhispers are blood heavy, as is the rest of our skills. You can attrition us to death by shielding/running constantly and if we aren't paying attention, yes we die when we hit 0% blood. That's the idea of attrition.

    Its not a very great way to fight, but it is a viable mechanic and then you get to say you killed Vampire X.

    Again, some classes would be way too unbalanced if you put their drains into mana because of the way some classes work in regards to mana pressure. Let me see a shaman fight a luminary when suddenly their oaths are mana heavy and I will laugh as you get absolved in 20 seconds.
    (Oasis): Benedicto says, "There was like 0.5 seconds between "Oh hey, they're in area. That was quick." and "OMFG THEY'RE IN THE AREA STAHP STAHP!""


  • TrikalTrikal Member Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    Post your suggestion to classleads, where the people who actively fight can comment on it and it will be evaluated. I see no reason to remove options for no gain.
    AtalkezDraiman
  • TrikalTrikal Member Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    @Seir Have you ever run out of willpower mid fight? It's death, I'd say it's critical.

    Actually when was the last time you fought, why are you even telling me how combat works?
    AtalkezFezzix
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Trikal said:

    @Seir Have you ever run out of willpower mid fight? It's death, I'd say it's critical.

    Actually when was the last time you fought, why are you even telling me how combat works?

    Your passive aggressiveness has been noted.

    I'll likely post the suggestion to classleads. And yes, I've run out of willpower mid fight. I've also been fighting in games that have gotten rid of it and, allow me to assure you, that they're much better off without it.

    We'll agree to disagree, however. I've also fought enough to know how arbitrary willpower and endurance are, which contrary to what you might think, doesn't really require someone to be the most active combatant in the world. Pretending that an understanding of combat mechanics requires someone to be continuously active is also vastly irrelevant unless you're directly discussing 1v1 combat, of which willpower and endurance are one small facet of. However, you really should probably stop trying to make this a personal matter when I'm simply just debating you.
  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai Member Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You mean those two games behind us in TMS?
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Chill outttttt.




    SeirIngram
«1
Sign In or Register to comment.