House Merging...

Iosyne

This discussion was created from comments split from: House Merging....

Edric said:

[quote]
Subj: House Merge

The House of Voltaire has merged with the House of Ve'kahi.
[/quote]

As some people might have seen from the news, the houses was merged together but what I (and the other people I've spoken to about it) don't quite understand is HOW one of the first House's in the game could be merged with another House, the only conclusion we've come up with is, metagaming...

Granted I'm not in either house just wish for a Understanding on how something like this had any RP behind it.. (minus Ve'kahi house leader wanted to merged her old house (from her alt) together to make it easier for her)


I'm not trying to insult anyone as it might come across like, Just trying to understand the RP behind it...

Akimoto

I am at an utter loss as to even come to any sort of explanation, if it were Ve'kahi being merged into Voltaire, I could have seen this as viable. As it stands, we lost one of the original Houses when everyone, divine included, has been trying to force the Houses to stay with the roots... this right here completely goes against everything that has been said over the past 9 years...

Edric

yeah that's why I made this post to try get some RP behind it.. since if it was Vekahi house going into Voltaire no one would care, but an original house being lost...

also, for what someone Just mentioned Icly.. its been going through for some time now.. but the Old house head of Voltaire was only in charge a week... so I claim metagaming of some sort.. which makes it even worst  

Kiyotan

That's a pretty strong accusation to bandy about. Given that there's no syntax to merge houses, wouldn't it be logical to assume that the divine had a hand in this?

Akimoto

actually it was going on oocly between the house heads before the recent one, the house head of both houses was trying to find a patsy to pass the house on to so that she could merge them successfully, so yes, I call metagaming.

Edric

Kiyotan said:

That's a pretty strong accusation to bandy about. Given that there's no syntax to merge houses, wouldn't it be logical to assume that the divine had a hand in this?

I know it is, but I really don't see the RP behind it.. and with the people I've spoke to, or heard speaking to about it. have the same conclusion. what RP cause was behind deleting an original house to merge with another which isn't one of the original houses?

and I know the House leader of Vekahi used to also run Voltaire .. who not long ago handed the House to someone then all of a sudden (a week or less) its merged together...I'm just trying to get the RP behind it...

One of the reasons I did said I'm not trying to insult anyone, or slander anyone etc etc

Xavin

Not knowing the circumstances behind it, I have to say that I'm glad that -something- at least is happening with houses. There have been too many for too long, really.

And I can see both sides of the argument re. if it were Ve'kahi merging into Voltaire or the other way around. Ve'kahi is and was the only one of the houses that was not Imperial. That makes it unique. But I do see why some would want to maintain the original houses.

Rho

Uh oh, the game is changing. Better make a forum post.

Edit: On a different note, I'm unsure why the original houses thing is a sticking point. If the original houses can't keep their shit together, why do they deserve to stick around over others?

Edric said:

As some people might have seen from the news, the houses was merged together but what I (and the other people I've spoken to about it) don't quite understand is HOW one of the first House's in the game could be merged with another House, the only conclusion we've come up with is, metagaming... 

Granted I'm not in either house just wish for a Understanding on how something like this had any RP behind it.. (minus Ve'kahi house leader wanted to merged her old house (from her alt) together to make it easier for her)

--

So you don't have any information from a character in either house and you personally don't know any of the RP behind it, and come to the immediate conclusion of metagaming? Lol.

Rivas

...eight posts in, and I'm still not seeing a RP log to go with this topic. Maybe this should be moved?

Edric

Rivas said:

...eight posts in, and I'm still not seeing a RP log to go with this topic. Maybe this should be moved?

Yea I wasn't sure as to where to post it, I was just like after the RP behind the merge since everyone I've spoken to have no clue about it til it just happened... Sorry for posting it in the wrong place...

@ Rho, I dont read the forums so unsure about all the whinging going on ... I dont care about the merge if im honest it's more about the RP behind it as the head of Vekahi and  the head of Voltaire was the same person (different alts) til recently, running it til less then a week ago or so, Ezrax took over and now the merge. so was it RP reason behind it, or other things behind it...

but I guess no one who knows will reply..

Alexina

Akimoto said:

I am at an utter loss as to even come to any sort of explanation, if it were Ve'kahi being merged into Voltaire, I could have seen this as viable. As it stands, we lost one of the original Houses when everyone, divine included, has been trying to force the Houses to stay with the roots... this right here completely goes against everything that has been said over the past 9 years...

Okay, this part I don't really understand. Where have the Divine given undead Houses directives to stay with their roots over the past nine years (it would be great if you have links to specific forum posts or announces in game or something like that)? I mean, did we even have undead houses nine years ago? I've not played that long, but I haven't seen anything like what you're describing since I came here from Achaea. To be honest, tons of organizations, cities, guilds, orders, Divine, players - pretty much everything - has changed since I started playing, but not undead houses. It seems to me like it is a good thing that the word is fluid and changing as opposed to static; the world feels much more immersive and engaging when you realize that it is actually possible to make a lasting change within the game.

On a similar note, I strongly disagree with the notion that houses should receive special treatment because they were among the first in the game. I sincerely believe that the involved people put adequate effort into the process to ensure that the outcome would be beneficial to the game as a whole, with at least some forethought towards any potential consequences from a merging.

Re: Edric
Metagaming is a violation of the game rules (as described in 'help 15.13'). If someone does the break the rules, I would suggest making an issue about it. That way, the administration will be able to look into the matter and take appropriate action without necessarily smearing another player's reputation. In this particular case, I find it very unlikely that metagaming has occurerred quite simply because the staff has obviously had a part in the whole transformation.

Re: Everyone
I also don't really think that people not belonging to either of the organizations have the right to say 'this is how it should had be done, what you did is wrong and bad' because it.. well.. it is a bit disrespectful. To accuse people of violating the rules, to say that this goes against everything people have been asking for since the creation of the game, etcetera, etcetera, would make me kind of depressed if I was actually involved in either of the houses. Moving an organization in a specific direction only to hear that you're doing it the way it wasn't meant to be done or being told that you've ruined a part of the game can be kind of disheartening. Criticism is fine but please keep in mind that some people are probably heavily invested in this change and their intentions probably are more to make the game better rather than to screw people over.

Mastema

Pretty sad if you ask me that this happened.

Arbre

I think merging the Houses is a great thing - we don't have the playerbase to support this many.  It's just the two chosen that confuse me.  I know Kira better than to think she's metagaming, ESPECIALLY since a divine (probably a coder or even @Razmael himself) had to do it.  I'm only confused about the ones merged - Voltaire and Ve'kahi, at least when I was in them, are nearly nothing alike.  I would have pressed Bouchard into something (and deleted Dar'sroth).

Azrael

Humorous that anyone would think that there would be viable roleplay behind the merger. Voltaire has been led by Kiralla for how many years and only a week ago (give or take a few days), what's his name took over the house and suddenly it's merged with Ve'kahi? Others may feel that metagaming wasn't involved, but by my definition it certainly was since Kira couldn't merge the houses together with her alts both running each of them. No offense to anyone but badly played in my opinion, not that my opinion matters much.

Kaetriela

I imagine Erzse will post on this if she notices it, however, I know a bit about what took place, so I'll lay the little bit of information I do have here:

- Kiralla was speaking to the Admin for a while about the possibility of merging houses, and there was attempts both in Ve'kahi and Voltaire to merge with -other- houses before it came down to the possibility of these two. Why? Because you don't want to merge two houses that both your characters run, for ^ this exact reason - even if you do so within every means possible to avoid metagaming, you'd still likely be accused of it (Because you can't make everyone happy and do whats needed at the same time). This decision to merge was done with the best interests of the game at heart. The Houses are stagnate, there are too many, many of us have known that for quite a while now and even spoke about it on the old forums at length. This was a needed change. 

- I don't really care much about Houses, and don't find that they currently add much of anything to the game except that they're there, they exist. As for a purpose, the only one that I can see they have is to be an organization for just Vampires to host social events for themselves and other Houses. This said, I don't see how Voltaire being one of the root Houses matters at all anymore, especially with how current circumstances with all the Houses are. 

- The Houses were approved to merge by Razmael, if I am not mistaken, who likely handled it personally. I think that if he felt like it was in some sort of violation of game rules, he wouldn't have allowed it. But I'll let him speak on that, if he chooses to do so. But this was handled by the administration. 

- RP: I know that Voltaire and Ve'kahi merged on the basis and acceptance of a mutually beneficial treaty. From what I have heard, since I am not a member of Voltaire, is that this treaty was discussed and supported by the majority of the House's members, not just Kiralla, the recently resigned, and not just Ezrax, the briefly appointed. There was negotiations involved. It was not just a flip of the switch moment. 

Erzsebet

Kiralla has actually been trying to merge Voltaire with either Lunare or D'baen for in-game decades because she believes it is best for both the two houses involved, and Consanguine society as a whole. Pretty much all of the waking house was on board with this idea. I stepped down as Kiralla because I haven't been playing her much, beyond logging on for Culture plans and shop taxes/stocking shops. I wrote a news post to the Voltaire about the potential merge, and I talked to Ezrax about it IC, while suggesting he talk to Lunare now that they've a competent leader who might consider at least listening to the proposal. I never mentioned anything about merging Voltaire and Ve'kahi together IC as Kiralla. Ever. Not once. Nor was it suggested OOCly. Ezrax brought it up to Kiralla at one point or another during the election and she told him that she wouldn't see a problem with it except that she had never seen the Leader of Ve'kahi to ask. Then she stepped down successfully and Ezrax took over. He near-to-immediately approached Erzsebet to ask about a potential merge. Erz laid down the base things she would require of a merge, they debated over a couple of them and she drew up the treaty that was offered to the Voltaire. They accepted the terms, and the gods helped the two houses merge.

Admittedly, I have mentioned to assorted people that I wished I -could- merge them together before via AIM/Skype because as far as their ideals go, they're really well-suited to each other, and I'd then only have to rule one--but this is the sort of wish that goes in the vein of whimsical non-serious wishes. I didn't plot this out OOCly, or metagame anything or go out of my way to manipulate and connive to make it happen like everyone seems to think I did. Everything that happened, happened ICly for IC reasons.

Yes. Voltaire was an original house. But if Voltaire hadn't had Ezrax and Vorlus constantly idling, it'd have been Minor for at least an RL year. Voltaire was dying. Novices stuck around rarely and were oft neglected when they did. Now Voltaire and Ve'kahi are one house, and both are thriving together. I don't understand why everyone is flipping out oocly over this. Not to mention claiming that they can kill everyone in Ve'kahi for it once. People are acting like Voltaire was stolen and vanished away in the night, but it wasn't. Not only did they agree to the merge, they agreed to ALL of the terms Erz offered. Once she wrote up the treaty draft and sent it, he pretty much approved it immediately and sat on it a few months so we could both show our respective houses. There was a lot of RP behind this, and while it was fairly exclusive to Voltaire/Ve'kahi leadership, we weren't exactly quiet about it in-game. 

Illikaal

I do personally see why someone would get upset about a situation like this. Lets all be honest and say that at first glance it does look suspicious. However, that doesn't give anyone the right to go "lol metagaming" and make baseless accusations.

That would be just as silly as a vampire getting pregnant and birthing a child!

Ezalor

OOCly I actually completely agree with this move since there really does need to be a thinning of the number of Houses. No one else was willing to give up theirs.

ICly...it's one of the original four! And they just folded into a (comparatively) new House that abstains from the Imperium. It also basically affirms that the Imperium has no use and no power whatsoever - many of the Council members tried to get something done to stop or at least delay the merger. But nope, we were left completely powerless and on the outside looking in. The merger wasn't even brought up before the Imperium at all. The only power it holds at all is the creation of Houses but it seems merging or destroying Houses, nope.

The Imperium was a cool idea and it certainly could work under the hand of someone impartial and overarching like Abhorash. But as it is it really needs some form of mechanical power to be worth a crap and I think as long as the Speaker is elected from one of the Houses, no one except that House is going to agree to give the Imperium power and take away some autonomy for their House. As it is it is thoroughly and utterly useless!

Azrael

I'm not disagreeing that something needed to happen and that in the end this will actually be good for the houses - as there are still far too many for our actual playerbase, As it stands most of them just mirror one another when the original four actually had four different purposes. I just disagree with how it was done. Taking 10+ years of history and lore of a House that's always been a proud Imperium nation so to speak and squashing it with 7 or 8 days of treaty discussing roleplaying, since it has been noted that RP was there, just seems more than a bit excessive. As to folks thinking it gives them PK rights over Ve'kahi, this ordeal destroyed an Imperium supporting house, it's most certainly possible that the organization could want some sort of retribution for it.

I was told OOCly the same day that Ezrax took over Voltaire that it was done so that Voltaire could merge into Ve'kahi, certainly wasn't something that I thought was overly believable even though it came from a truly reliable source, and then to see it actually happen roughly a week later, yeah, folks can see why I would call metagaming.

Mastema

I tend to agree that it was a low blow to dissolve/merge Voltaire given its history. I personaly do not follow the Imperium as a player, and it can not harm my game time that it happened, but retribution for this is a given from a IC perspective. And I would not blame people for taking action over it either.

Azrael

Yeah, Az isn't' involved with the Imperium either, was just pointing out that "if" there were die hard Imperium folks - which to my knowledge there aren't anymore, that it could be a possibility. For me as a player this ordeal turns me away from Houses in general though so Az will simply stick to guilds since vampires can now join them thanks to multiclassing and what not. I do however wish houses the best!

Xavin

Lolimperium. Has it had a purpose beyond some small rp for a few people, vampiredrama and a means to an honorsline for some lucky house-heads anytime recently?

Damonicus

I for one am happy finally someone merged two houses. Regardless of what Voltaire was, and the history of the house. Times change. Volt has been dead since Damon was in D'baen. No matter how it came about. It happened. If the Imperium steps in and tries to Rp some event about it, even better that means the Imperium will do something for once. How many things have changed over the past 10 years. Mages split, Paladins, Infernals, Druids, Priests all gone. Technology has come into play with Ylem. Llies (the 1st goddess), Arion and other gods dead and redone. These are all things people griped, wree upset about. But, the players involved in what is happening move forward and make the new "house" better for everyone involved in the game play. My hat is off to you. Let's merge some more and get it down to four houses now!!

Seir

While it kind of sucks that one of the original houses is gone, change is ultimately good for the game and it seems like consolidating the houses will be healthier for Consanguine and their novices in the long run.

Also, since Zsarachnor is gone and he was previously the Source and that means the Emperors are now the Source, isn't there a better chance of Ve'kahi's founder coming back to sire a few than Voltaire's emperor? Not that blood rank truly matters and I have no clue who Ve'kahi's emperor was/is.

Me just trying to find some positives, really.

Ezalor

Seir said:

While it kind of sucks that one of the original houses is gone, change is ultimately good for the game and it seems like consolidating the houses will be healthier for Consanguine and their novices in the long run.

Also, since Zsarachnor is gone and he was previously the Source and that means the Emperors are now the Source, isn't there a better chance of Ve'kahi's founder coming back to sire a few than Voltaire's emperor? Not that blood rank truly matters and I have no clue who Ve'kahi's emperor was/is.

Me just trying to find some positives, really.

Belladonna/Yrtez was the source, not Zsarachnor. He was a failed creation. She's been gone for quite some time too. Ve'kahi's founder is Zoharim, same as Bahir'an's. Abhorash is the Primus but all this blood rank stuff has been redundant for quite some time now. It's just a title now really.

Kaetriela

A brief history lesson!

Zoharim was the Emperor of Ve'kahi, and while he eventually left Ve'kahi, his Sire was Abhorash.

Xavin

(wasn't he kicked out, just like with Bahir'an?)

Azrael

Sadly, I highly doubt any of the old originals would ever come back, some have moved onto being Gods either in Aetolia or another IRE game, some have parted ways with IRE on very bad terms, and even if that weren't the case the Consanguine world certainly isn't what it use to be and the elitist views that came with that history have pretty much been washed down the drain. I remember for a bit Faith was making short returns, I've seen her a handful of times since I first started playing, and those returns were usually followed by how horrible the world has become and how vampires have fallen from grace. Zoharim's returns were typically followed by tantrums that led to him getting kicked out of Bahir'an and creating a Ve'kahi, denouncing the Imperium which he also got started, and back to topor again after another tantrum. I would have adored seeing Para make a return, intriguing character, but now that there is no Voltaire that would be an awkward awakening for sure. We all know where Big Zahmmy and Abhorash are. I do have to admit that I got all excited and giddy when I seen Abhorash make a brief return and take over D'baen, I had hoped it meant that there would be more RP involved since his character is of course the beginning, I mean the whispers that were going on when people began to notice him running around was great. Yep, Consanguine as we elderly folks know them are dead, hopefully they'll get a new sense of purpose sometime soon. I rambling.

Ezalor

Yeah damnit I really hope we get some event where Abhorash comes back again played by a Divine or something and sets shit in place. As it is I can see him under D'baen's House members which is pretty lulzy.

Consanguine unity and everything has really fallen apart, every House is just their own individual entity running around at this point.

Ezrax

If you feel either myself or Erz were metagaming with this, you're fully welcome to take it up with the Divine via an ISSUE.

We'll see what Razmael, the person who merged the Houses, has to say about the affair.

Ezrax

Also: I didn't hide it. I gave the Imperium and the other Houses a WEEK to act on it. Did they? Sure - after the merge, when they flipped their lids.