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  • SerriceSerrice the Black Fox Member Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Still was boring as f. But a job had to be done.
     
  • VaskarVaskar Member Posts: 57 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2016
    Draiman said:

    Off topic but on topic and slightly aggressive:
    @Zsadist - Get over people enjoying RPing(emoting) and not PKing, holy unicorns. I'm sorry, but I'm tired of you whining about people who only emote and never do anything else every other post in every other thread. Give it a rest ok.

    I can't understand what he has against doing nothing but RP, because from all appearances he does nothing but autobash.
    TragerDraimanZsadistAvishaiIllidan
  • ZsadistZsadist Member Posts: 815 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2016
    Edit: unicorns it, comment makes no difference. People will believe what they want.
    (Oasis): Benedicto says, "There was like 0.5 seconds between "Oh hey, they're in area. That was quick." and "OMFG THEY'RE IN THE AREA STAHP STAHP!""


  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai Member Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't recall asking for a clarification or a reason, I just remember telling you to stop whining about them. Lemme double check what I wrote.




    Yep. Please stop.
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



    Illidan
  • PilarPilar Member Posts: 38 ✭✭✭
    Honestly, I'm confused here - from what I'm reading we just have different expectations as to what "conflict" means and the appropriate way to stir things up.

    How can you say that you want conflict between factions when you're showing up in the middle of the night to raid when like...10+ are logged in to the entire game. What did you expect to happen? Two people being able to take down so many guards is absolutely ludicrous and unheard of, no matter how arti'd out or what level you are. If you can't do it in Warcraft why would you expect to do it on Aetolia? No one is going to see this as "starting conflict" we're going to see it as griefing.

    That's the only problem I had with the guards - it's an expensive thing to set up and it doesn't really work right now so why bother. Give me a good reason to keep paying for it, which admin mostly did though I do like what @Seir proposed. Outside of that, I dunno - the whole extortion thing was a good setup, that seems like a good rp way to start a conflict but beginning it with suicide bashing guards for DAYS in a row just seemed like someone got bored, knew they were OP, and decided to take it out on us. Typical, it's what we expect.

    Now it's just spiraling into just because we don't play the way the other side wanted/or expected to it's not a true conflict. Duiran has no intention of giving in, Pilar would not be cowed or bullied, and the guards got an upgrade they obviously needed but...suddenly because guards can't be killed as easily there's no conflict? There's plenty of conflict to be had but just like RP people apparently can't complain about PK people taking advantage of an obvious scaling flaw - don't complain when you're hit with some snarky RP and underhanded tactics instead of whatever fight it is you were looking for.
    He told me I was so small...
    I told him, "Water me."

    Affirm Pilar!
  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai Member Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not saying it's you, because I don't believe I've ever interacted with you, but most of that 'snarky rp' people are hit with are people talking smack behind guards or running off at the mouth at characters that they stand no chance against and then still doing it after repeated deaths.
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



  • PilarPilar Member Posts: 38 ✭✭✭
    Draiman said:

    I'm not saying it's you, because I don't believe I've ever interacted with you, but most of that 'snarky rp' people are hit with are people talking smack behind guards or running off at the mouth at characters that they stand no chance against and then still doing it after repeated deaths.

    I would consider that griefing too and put it under the same category!

    Don't get upset when you get so annoying that people put you on their ignore list.

    Don't get upset when admin step in when you do the whole guard thing.
    He told me I was so small...
    I told him, "Water me."

    Affirm Pilar!
  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Have you all just had deathsight off for the last RL week...? Trikal and Akara (and various other people) have raided from like noon EST to like 9 AM EST. Before that gets misconstrued, I mean in terms of times when they attack. There have been skirms in sewers, guard raids, various things pretty regularly at least once a day - sometimes when lots of you are on and sometimes when there aren't many. The overwhelming response to them raiding has apparently been 'meh'.

    Second point, how is it anything other than RP for a character who can beat up another character to...do so when given a reason, @Pilar? Is there even a reason for a PK system, if you can say/do what you want and it is considered griefing for someone to try to stop you?
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I'll still never forget the first time I saw Toz throwing hammers."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I freaked out and thought they had somehow managed to pull me into them."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "So I tumbled away from my team and into theirs."


  • PilarPilar Member Posts: 38 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2016
    Toz said:

    Have you all just had deathsight off for the last RL week...? Trikal and Akara (and various other people) have raided from like noon EST to like 9 AM EST. Before that gets misconstrued, I mean in terms of times when they attack. There have been skirms in sewers, guard raids, various things pretty regularly at least once a day - sometimes when lots of you are on and sometimes when there aren't many. The overwhelming response to them raiding has apparently been 'meh'.

    Second point, how is it anything other than RP for a character who can beat up another character to...do so when given a reason, @Pilar? Is there even a reason for a PK system, if you can say/do what you want and it is considered griefing for someone to try to stop you?

    For the last week I've been REALLY busy with work and from all the reports I've been getting, it's happening the most during low traffic times. I have not seen messages of it happening as much during the times you're quoting or at all.

    Second, I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I never said no one can not or should not PK anybody, not once, so...
    He told me I was so small...
    I told him, "Water me."

    Affirm Pilar!
  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2016
    Pilar said:

    Draiman said:

    I'm not saying it's you, because I don't believe I've ever interacted with you, but most of that 'snarky rp' people are hit with are people talking smack behind guards or running off at the mouth at characters that they stand no chance against and then still doing it after repeated deaths.

    I would consider that griefing too and put it under the same category!
    That was what my second point was about - and I'm not just talking to you, but all the people who keep saying 'raiding at low pop times' with my first point. I mean, at one point it was Trikal v 8 people in Enorian's sewer, another there was a weird 5v6-7 going on with border skirms. I'm not angry, just trying to figure out where all this misinformation is even coming from.
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I'll still never forget the first time I saw Toz throwing hammers."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I freaked out and thought they had somehow managed to pull me into them."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "So I tumbled away from my team and into theirs."


  • FezzixFezzix Member Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2016
    Draiman said:

    I'm not saying it's you, because I don't believe I've ever interacted with you, but most of that 'snarky rp' people are hit with are people talking smack behind guards or running off at the mouth at characters that they stand no chance against and then still doing it after repeated deaths.

    This is why dying needs to mean something. I could kill people multiple times for RP reasons that are within the PK rules, but the conflict can't be resolved until either party essentially steps down. In my experience, this comes from the aggressor ultimately realizing that you can't intimidate people using the threat of death in this game, so the threats/ganks eventually just drop off while the noncombatant sits back and keeps talking smack. If death had a more significant impact, I bet the "still doing it after repeated deaths" would come to an end.
    Canaan
  • SerriceSerrice the Black Fox Member Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2016
    You could always just reframe your definition of success and consider victory when the other side baws on the forums loud enough to get the admin to change things.
     
    TrikalZsadistAsaraiiJensen
  • TragerTrager Raiding your underwear drawer.Member Posts: 568 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2016
    It's the time-old conflict of RP versus mechanix. Person A wants to RP a badass, war-fighting leader that can take two Vampires on with both hands tied behind their back while balancing on one foot. Person B is a Vampire that can take on Person A and six of his friends with aforementioned handicaps. Person A gets mad. People have such a huge issue with 'losing'. I get it, hell, I do to, that's why I began working on my 'mechanix' in the first place.

    I support death meaning something in Aetolia.

  • SerriceSerrice the Black Fox Member Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Person A sounds like a strawman set up to justify griefing to me, personally.
     
  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai Member Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not even. Strawman is made up/imaginary. Person A is totally real and most of the Spirit side.
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



    IllidanIshin
  • IlyonIlyon Member Posts: 746 ✭✭✭
    Fezzix said:

    When I played Achaea eight years ago, dying would cost you several hours of constant bash time. If dying actually had a penalty behind it, it'd probably make people think twice before making suicide guard killing runs. It would also make it so that citizens of the raided city could depend more on their guards, since death could actually be somewhat of a deterrent.

    While true, doing so would also reduce the already-bad combat participation even more.

  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2016
    Man, I've been all over IRE at this point and the amount of caustic behavior and sweeping generalizations demonstrated by both sides is enough to make me seriously question if people are capable of setting a distinction between actions that involve themselves and their characters. I say this because this is some of the absolute worst behavior I've seen out of players, especially by comparison to the other games.

    We're only two pages in on a discussion and there's enough vitriol to warrant closing it already. While this isn't directed at everyone, there are some of you that need to stop perceiving commentary and suggestions for mechanics as an attack against your "enjoyment" of the game. More importantly, stop perceiving the players on the other side of the spectrum as of some sort of actual adversary that "whines" or "complains" about everything. I think there's some serious partisan issues going on if you're going to argue that one person raiding guards (which is the entire point of this thread) is inherently balanced or at all justified because there aren't a lot of other legitimate conflict avenues in the game right now. I'm going to also question how partisan you are in that regard because there were players on both sides stating the exact same arguments when Daskalos was doing it to Spinesreach.

    Some of you really need to take a step back on the personal attacks. It's just a game.
    Feirenz
  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I started to write up a long post, but then i realized it was 100% unnecessary because many great points have already been made. However, just to reinforce and reiterate:

    This is a roleplaying game. It's completely stupid to expect players to sit there and do nothing while the city that they're in is effectively being buttblasted. Whether they can actually win the fight or not is something else entirely, still, saying "Lol just sit there and do nothing" is just plain idiotic and unhelpful to the situation.
                                    
                 Faaaaaaaaaaabulous!                                          Adorable!                                                               UHMAYZING!

    Calipso has been slain by the divine might of Razmael, the Synthesist.

    Illidan said: You already knew that there's some dumb-as-unicorns attention mongering wanna-be troll going around and robbing people.
    Calipso said: For the first time on the forums, Im actually 100% in agreement with Illidan.
    TragerDraimanXavinPilar
  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai Member Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2016
    Ilyon said:
    When I played Achaea eight years ago, dying would cost you several hours of constant bash time. If dying actually had a penalty behind it, it'd probably make people think twice before making suicide guard killing runs. It would also make it so that citizens of the raided city could depend more on their guards, since death could actually be somewhat of a deterrent.
    While true, doing so would also reduce the already-bad combat participation even more.
    Are you sure? The opposite seems to be happening. The more 'bad' that is taken out the less participation I see. The surge of activity we're seeing now is because of retirement. The luster of a new game is going to wear off soon and then what?

    Edited: @Seir there's only been one personal attack in this thread (and it was aimed at Zsadist and imo well deserved) and anyone who doesn't play Aetolia or IRE wouldn't think the discussion is all that toxic. 

    I'm really really sick of playing Aetolia, The PC Age. Can we roll back the servers to the last version of the Midnight Age or can I get a refund? 
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



    IshinTrikal
  • FezzixFezzix Member Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2016
    Ilyon said:


    While true, doing so would also reduce the already-bad combat participation even more.

    I doubt it. Non-ylem aura PK already hardly exists, so I don't see higher exp loss for death having a negative impact. If anything, I see it attracting more players who like having stakes on the table when they PvP. Those who take a more casual approach can continue to fight in arenas or with a ylem aura.

    Regarding city raiding being an issue, I understand feeling obligated to defend a city thanks to RP reasons; however, I also see perfectly valid roleplay behind letting guards do their jobs. I like the changes to guard complacency to make this option viable, but I think something more needs to be done.

    As far as I know, city guard recruitment and upkeep costs haven't changed, while exp loss from death has been significantly reduced over the years. Right now, players can do suicide runs against guards and cost a city a good chunk of their commodity and gold reserves while only losing maybe half an hour's worth of bash time in exchange. The way things used to be, there was more of a balance between the two, so an attacker had to consider whether or not the exp loss was worth hitting the enemy city in the wallet.

    In my mind, one of two things can be done to offer the simplest solution: Either make guards cost less, or make death exp loss more costly. I'd prefer the latter, because I'm tired of seeing little to no consequence for the losing side. Players need to feel the gravity of their decisions, because it provides for more genuine roleplay and a more enriching experience.



  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2016
    Draiman said:


    Ilyon said:

    When I played Achaea eight years ago, dying would cost you several hours of constant bash time. If dying actually had a penalty behind it, it'd probably make people think twice before making suicide guard killing runs. It would also make it so that citizens of the raided city could depend more on their guards, since death could actually be somewhat of a deterrent.
    While true, doing so would also reduce the already-bad combat participation even more.

    Are you sure? The opposite seems to be happening. The more 'bad' that is taken out the less participation I see. The surge of activity we're seeing now is because of retirement. The luster of a new game is going to wear off soon and then what?

    Edited: @Seir there's only been one personal attack in this thread (and it was aimed at Zsadist and imo well deserved) and anyone who doesn't play Aetolia or IRE wouldn't think the discussion is all that toxic. 

    I'm really really sick of playing Aetolia, The PC Age. Can we roll back the servers to the last version of the Midnight Age or can I get a refund? 
    If I'm completely honest, the reason people don't like participating in conflict is because there's a certain degree of truth in what @Trager said. People just don't like to die because it disrupts their own narrative they have about their characters. They don't like that someone came and killed their avatar and potentially did something to their character that was outside of their control. Even if you removed XP loss completely from player deaths, this would remain a constant. Since Aetolia has such high roleplay standards by comparison to the rest of IRE, I believe this is more true here than somewhere like Imperian where there is less emphasis on roleplay.

    There's also the possibility that conflict just isn't fun for some people. For one, a lot of conflict ends up resulting in a contest of who can throw the most bodies at an objective and then getting zerged down immediately or dealing with which side has potentially more whales than the other. Me personally, I was frustrated whenever I tried to generate conflict between me and one other person and it would immediately become a dogpile. I quickly learned to just not bother or take my own group in quickly dispatching people so other players wouldn't try to be opportunists and just dogpile me down. Edit: This is repeatedly why I've tried to encourage mechanics that DISCOURAGE group ganking and dogpiling because I knew that non-ylem based PK was going to die out as a result of people perpetuating this silly group gank cycle and players weren't being held accountable for the actions of their character.

    This all ties into people just not liking to lose at all and sometimes you're going to need conflict avenues (like war) where there is a clear winner and a clear loser and participation, while not forced, is going to involve the entire organization on some level. This is why, despite its faults, I absolutely adored the war system and it's why I've said that the village revolt system of Lusternia is one of the most successful examples of a conflict system. Why? It encourages participation not only from PK'ers, but also from people who are less inclined to PK, but gives them a means of contributing to where they feel comfortable taking a risk because it allows them to contribute to the overall effort. On the flip side with what we currently have, lessers are optional and, once the initial magic of them wore off, they quickly fizzled into a contest of who has more bodies at the time. What has happened is that the objective has no novelty or impact of being meaningful to the player or the character. Now, we have a situation where people are so starved for conflict that they're resorting to taking advantage of what scant mechanics still DO exist and I can see the frustration that has arisen as a result from both combatants and non-combatants. Edit: To add, avenues of conflict that affect an organization should require a group effort. They shouldn't be something that one person is taking advantage of, like we're seeing with guards. It's not the player's fault, but rather the design of what is being taken advantage of.
  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher Member Posts: 1,808 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Fezzix said:
    While true, doing so would also reduce the already-bad combat participation even more.
    I doubt it. Non-ylem aura PK already hardly exists, so I don't see higher exp loss for death having a negative impact. If anything, I see it attracting more players who like having stakes on the table when they PvP. Those who take a more casual approach can continue to fight in arenas or with a ylem aura. Regarding city raiding being an issue, I understand feeling obligated to defend a city thanks to RP reasons; however, I also see perfectly valid roleplay behind letting guards do their jobs. I like the changes to guard complacency to make this option viable, but I think something more needs to be done. As far as I know, city guard recruitment and upkeep costs haven't changed, while exp loss from death has been significantly reduced over the years. Right now, players can do suicide runs against guards and cost a city a good chunk of their commodity and gold reserves while only losing maybe half an hour's worth of bash time in exchange. The way things used to be, there was more of a balance between the two, so an attacker had to consider whether or not the exp loss was worth hitting the enemy city in the wallet. In my mind, one of two things can be done to offer the simplest solution: Either make guards cost less, or make death exp loss more costly. I'd prefer the latter, because I'm tired of seeing little to no consequence for the losing side. Players need to feel the gravity of their decisions, because it provides for more genuine roleplay and a more enriching experience.
    Once again that still only hurts the casual player.  If I wanted to (even with severe XP loss) I could suicide run guards for weeks and earn everything back with membership bonuses, chalice, and book tats.  If I can do that certainly more hardcore players can too.  Also those who solo guards generally have decent pulling/hit and run tactics to split up density.
    image
  • VaskarVaskar Member Posts: 57 ✭✭✭
    Fezzix said:


    In my mind, one of two things can be done to offer the simplest solution: Either make guards cost less, or make death exp loss more costly. I'd prefer the latter, because I'm tired of seeing little to no consequence for the losing side. Players need to feel the gravity of their decisions, because it provides for more genuine roleplay and a more enriching experience.

    The problem with increased death costs is that they result in decreased participation. When the only way you can win is to not play, people aren't going to play. If the reward for fighting against raiders and losing is "lose a ton of exp and your guards" and the reward for not fighting them at all is "just lose guards", you don't get that many people willing to jump into defenses when the odds aren't overwhelmingly in their favor. When the only way to win is not to play, they ain't gonna play. Sure, that might mean you 'win', but coming in first of a field of one ain't exactly an achievement to be proud of.

    It's better to go the other way. Remove death costs entirely. Keep PK experience. When you make PK more rewarding, you get more people who want to PK.
    Akara
  • AkaraAkara Member Posts: 7
    edited March 2016
    While I enjoy combat for the fun/mechanics/conflict and find reward in simply fighting, I don't expect everyone does. People like to be rewarded for what they do, so losing experience is always going to be a detriment. Removing death costs would be a good start, but better yet, provide some kind of reward simply for participating, even should you lose. This way, everyone gets something. While this applies to the topic here, it could also be considered concerning things like Sect, where you currently get very little (your total matches goes up) for being defeated.
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vaskar said:

    Fezzix said:


    In my mind, one of two things can be done to offer the simplest solution: Either make guards cost less, or make death exp loss more costly. I'd prefer the latter, because I'm tired of seeing little to no consequence for the losing side. Players need to feel the gravity of their decisions, because it provides for more genuine roleplay and a more enriching experience.

    The problem with increased death costs is that they result in decreased participation. When the only way you can win is to not play, people aren't going to play. If the reward for fighting against raiders and losing is "lose a ton of exp and your guards" and the reward for not fighting them at all is "just lose guards", you don't get that many people willing to jump into defenses when the odds aren't overwhelmingly in their favor. When the only way to win is not to play, they ain't gonna play. Sure, that might mean you 'win', but coming in first of a field of one ain't exactly an achievement to be proud of.

    It's better to go the other way. Remove death costs entirely. Keep PK experience. When you make PK more rewarding, you get more people who want to PK.
    Your suggestions are what Achaea did with sanctioned raids. Those interested can read up at : http://www.achaea.com/game/helpview/achaea?what=10.14&x=Help

    Imperian also removed xp loss and it worked pretty well. Imperian's only current issue with PvP is that the game is pretty stacked in terms of population for one circle right now. However, their shrine conflict has been pretty active overall.

    Basically, it's a good system from what I've experienced. Raids are present, but never quite to the point where they're overwhelming. You can't get anywhere unless there's actually defenders around to kill (so that kills off late night raiding). It has an objective, but the objective isn't a huge detriment to those being raided.

    However, while increasing xp loss definitely is not the solution unless you want to stifle conflict, I believe taking a temporary malus to overall vitals the more you die IS a way to discourage people from repeatedly suiciding into things and making them less effective overall in a PK scenario if they keep trying. This is an acceptable alternative, in my opinion.
    Pilar
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