Small Ideas - AIN'T NO COMBAT THREAD

Rhyot

Don't like any of the cities? Join the True Rogues, where anyone is welcome so long as you don't kill each other.

All of a sudden, everyone is joining True Rogues because now they don't have to fight each other and we have people from both sides fighting for the same reason: to stop the cities from being able to do anything. Now Templar and Sentinels can fight alonside Praenomen and Carnifex, and Luminaries can wreck shop with Indorani. There's no real downside to this!!
------------------

If clans are given more and more mechanics that an ACTUAL organization has, it WILL detract from a legitimate organization because that's what things will gravitate towards to.

Edit: The clan example and summary is just a mere idea of what would possibly happen and in no way do I endorse that idea.

Teani

That clans can be many things does not by default mean that they should have the same kind of powers as larger organizations (city, guild, order). I will echo @Trager here: giving the same sort of privileges to clans as for large organization will diminish their status, which could cause unnecessary imbalance.

As has been stated, clans have a different option when it comes to structure by appointment to positions, which is made visible in the CLANHELP.

I'm not sure what you mean by asking guards for clans? The only NPC you would need to involve would be some form of official for adding/revoking titles. Other than that they are not involved in clans, I believe. Unless you start one from scratch and buy one.

Kalak

All I said was to give a title privilege with gold to deal with cumbersomeness of NPC mechanic. People are exaggerating. *facepalm*

@Rhyot You may or may not have such an experience. I do not know. But based on my solid experience I can say that "True Rogues" scenario does not occur. Instead that opens paths to mercenaries, banditry and many other different avenues of RP. It sparks much activity, provides tools for different playstyles. But I shall not argue on this. Paranoia is strong in this game. If based on a title idea people go to the lengths of mentioning "doom of all organizations" I am truly speechless.

Phoenecia

Just as an FYI, there used to be an NPC that could title you if you paid him gold. Teneric, if I remember. But he went poof when Delos went poof, and an equivalent was never put back in.

Same with the NPC that could customize keys for you by giving him metals and gems. 

As far as titling privs go? I don't think it's something clans should have simply because clans are so varied in use, and quite a few are OOC, or are tied to orgs already (which have titling privs anyway). Having a neutral NPC able to do it isn't too much of a stretch since it has existed before.

Toz

Titles are like an actual thing. Guilds and cities are long-standing orgs with established sovereignty and rl years of RP behind them, and admin can step in to take out leadership getting out of hand (Duiran) or course correct a RP direction they don't like (Carnifex). They have IC and OOC checks and balances and in return they are vested with powers, among these titling.

A title isn't a nickname though. It isn't some 'quirky' key that you are given, it carries weight. The Carnifex titled me 'the Iron Hammer', granting it to me and adding it to the record books (so it shows up in honors). It's an official 'thing'.

Conversely, @Kanivara calls me Badger. That isn't a 'thing' unless a ranking person of somewhere actually important makes it so. Its a nickname, not a title, not carrying the weight or support of a place or thing or organization anyone gives a rat's ass about. Your clan isn't that important. If your clan is consistent in RP for a long time, legitimized in RP and subject to admin oversight like other organizations? Sure, maybe you get to be the special snowflake clan that titles. Until then, a semi-shady guy abusing Esterport's authority to grant titles for a fee exist(ed?) to handle the rogues who want it.

Haven

Kalak said:

All I said was to give a title privilege with gold to deal with cumbersomeness of NPC mechanic. People are exaggerating. *facepalm*

@Rhyot You may or may not have such an experience. I do not know. But based on my solid experience I can say that "True Rogues" scenario does not occur. Instead that opens paths to mercenaries, banditry and many other different avenues of RP. It sparks much activity, provides tools for different playstyles. But I shall not argue on this. Paranoia is strong in this game. If based on a title idea people go to the lengths of mentioning "doom of all organizations" I am truly speechless.

@Kalak Haha, I get what you're saying. The community, for the most part, does mean well. Take the opposition with a grain of salt.

If the NPC no longer exists, maybe it was forgotten with the city transformation of Delos. I'd suggest maybe bugging it or reaching out to one of the admin about it. So long as an NPC (preferably with a fee, gold sinks wanted) exists that anyone can reach, I don't see a need for clans to have the same conveniences as regular organizations.

Zaila

For how many times players have requested the titling NPC be replaced since Delos was destroyed and no NPC has appeared to take it's place, I have assumed the admin don't intend to replace it for whatever reason that is.

Antehe

You would probably be surprised how many times we have the following conversation:

"Hey anyone know what happened to X?"

"There was X?"

"Yeah, while ago, but stuff happened and I don't know where it is."

"Huh. No idea."

Hint: We had it today regarding the key customization.

Kanivara

I have been summoned!! >.>

Kalak, just ask a Senator to title you ffs. Unless it's something like "Supreme Lord of Spinesreach" or something belonging to a guild you're not part of, I'll title you whatever it is. My character doesn't give a flying pincher's arse about titles. If she could get away with it, she'd title Toz "Iron Badger" or something like that. Toz would probably kick her butt, though, so she wouldn't. XD

There's no need for suggestions like this that would, as this playerbase has shown over the last 2 years I've played, end up being abused. You give an inch like this, some players can, would, and absolutely WILL take a mile. Bouchard did for the entire time I've played, until Zenobia got the clan made into a legit House again.

Also, clans need slightly more intuitive commands before I'd support adding crap. CLAN POSITIONS and CLAN PRIVILEGES need to be a thing. CLAN EXEC_SUMMARY doesn't really stick in the mind, and shows more information than I'm looking for to begin with.

Tiur

As someone who has abused the titling system with combat implications, I am hesitant to open it to more abuse. It's an easy utility to encourage organizational RP, which we here are trying to do. I'm not keen on giving decentralized groups more incentive.

Tekias

As someone who has accidentally abused the titling system with combat implications, it's already insanely easy for someone to do so without realizing it. No need to give just anyone the ability to (even though I'm, like, 99.99999% sure Kalak wouldn't, it's a slippery slope for others)

Kalak

Kanivara said:

I have been summoned!! >.>

Kalak, just ask a Senator to title you ffs. Unless it's something like "Supreme Lord of Spinesreach" or something belonging to a guild you're not part of, I'll title you whatever it is. My character doesn't give a flying pincher's arse about titles. If she could get away with it, she'd title Toz "Iron Badger" or something like that. Toz would probably kick her butt, though, so she wouldn't. XD

There's no need for suggestions like this that would, as this playerbase has shown over the last 2 years I've played, end up being abused. You give an inch like this, some players can, would, and absolutely WILL take a mile. Bouchard did for the entire time I've played, until Zenobia got the clan made into a legit House again.

If it was about getting a title to Kalak then that would be the way to follow.

And Bouchard was a success and it enriches the game rather then detracts from it. Adds to the story after all.

Tiur said:

As someone who has abused the titling system with combat implications, I am hesitant to open it to more abuse. It's an easy utility to encourage organizational RP, which we here are trying to do. I'm not keen on giving decentralized groups more incentive.

Centralization and consolidation is good on the paper, but on the other hand it truly kills uncertainty factor to a degree. We are playing a dark fantasy game and roles of mercenary, rogue, bandit, freelancer etc. have not much room in the game. All lines are drawn clearly most of the time. Of course, cities and guilds should have the greatest advantages mechanically. But I digress a little.

This was asked just to make things easier if people ever want to create IC-clan organizations ranging from a cult to trade consortium with titles. Rather then finding an obscure NPC or bugging an official each time...they would be still paying in gold, but instead of the drag they would do it with the command.

Though as you and @Tekias stated perhaps there is not much faith in playerbase to handle it with care.

Trager

Kalak said:

All I said was to give a title privilege with gold to deal with cumbersomeness of NPC mechanic. People are exaggerating. *facepalm*

@Rhyot You may or may not have such an experience. I do not know. But based on my solid experience I can say that "True Rogues" scenario does not occur. Instead that opens paths to mercenaries, banditry and many other different avenues of RP. It sparks much activity, provides tools for different playstyles. But I shall not argue on this. Paranoia is strong in this game. If based on a title idea people go to the lengths of mentioning "doom of all organizations" I am truly speechless.

I'm just here to say I disagree, while simultaneously clicking 'disagree' on this quoted post, just so that true extent of my disagreement is understood.

Sorry, had to find out what the appeal is. Can't say I found any.

Kalak

If you mean the appeal to play a mercenary, bandit, freelancer or criminal...there are enough. That requires a different type of style and commitment, presenting uncertainty elements into the clear cut nature of a game.

Some people like uncertainty, some are horrified by that. For me it is a matter of creating tools and testing them out in the field. They may work, they may fail. There is much appeal in experimenting with what you have.

Phoenecia

You keep talking like no one has tried any of these things before. I've been full rogue (citiess, guildless) off and on for years and tried to do the whole merchant thing or wandering Knight errant thing, and tried to make clan-based orgs out of it. Failed every time.

The truth of the matter is there just really isn't much of a market for it. A majority of players are in mechanically supported orgs. A majority of conflict and events are with mechanically supported orgs. Trying to do anything outside of that is extremely difficult unless you're already well-established, and even then, more often than not you get a whole lot of nothing. It's a lot of effort for pretty much no reward.

These things you want, have you even considered why they don't exist? Band of mercenaries? If you're taking jobs out on everyone, expect to be ostracized by potentially most people on both sides of the game; why waste your time with someone who sells their allegiance when you can just have someone you trust on your side to do your dirty work.

A group of thieves? Thievery isn't looked upon kindly in his game and is widely regarded as griefing, so be prepared to be hated by EVERYBODY. Good luck with getting interaction from anyone at all.

Guild of spies? Syssin already have that covered. Plus, outside the Syssin you've already got a bunch of people with the class you can ask to do your spying for you.

Want to be a merchant? Totally doable if you have a shop. I did it for years while being guildless and citiless, but I can say it was boring as hell most of the time, and required a ton of effort to get meaningful RP going.

And the fact of the matter is, a lot of what you're wanting? It's already done on a small-scale, interpersonal level. Guilds, cities, and orders will always have schisms on ideology, and pocket groups forming that operate together to get things done. You'll have people within orgs that will take odd jobs like mercenary work or surveillance.

And speaking from experience, another reason why you don't see bands of mercenaries or thieves is because a combination of game mechanics and player environment aren't conducive for it, and player interest can wax and wane frequently. You might get a bit of interest for a bit before people move on or find that it's unsustainable or that there's really not much you can do. Trust me. I've seen it happen with a lot of player-run initiatives, and I could name dozens of things that have fallen through.

Kalak

It is within hands of the playerbase to react towards a certain kind of conduct. I have seen rogue elements handled pretty well, despite odds. Everyone could have a different experience, and right that is easy to cave in. I shall not give examples, because I do not wish to hear weak excuse of "Oh this is Aetolia, this place is sooo different"

As sellsword Bronn says while looking at the impenetrable castle of Eyrie:

"Give me ten good men and some climbing spikes, I'll impregnate the bitch."

Edit: Damn censoring.

Toz

You have a very egotistical view. Your examples are beyond critique to the extent that names aren't even provided, yet the established player base who have been here long before you aren't allowed to weigh in because the sum of their experience is somehow less valid. You will succeed with your rogue endeavor even though others who came before you could not, and their failure is irrelevant to you because you are somehow more than them.

I'm going to start with the social aspect for arguing against your post. Aetolian gameplay does not exist in a vacuum. When you emote or act, you pull on a string. You may imagine the rest of the game world to be similarly made up of strings. Sometimes you pull and only your string moves - solo RP. What you are wanting is not solo RP, and so when you pull one string you will move other strings. In your mind, you will make a mercenary group or a rogue alliance of spies and thieves. It will be interesting to you, you will have fun, and you can easily imagine a rogue den in Esterport where you and your cronies lurk, awaiting a contract.

What you fail to account for is the other strings involved. No one from Enorian can hire you because of city ethos - not if you also work for BL or any other person. Duiran will likely do the same, for the same reasons - why pay you when the gold given might then directly be used to harm them. This leaves BL and Spinesreach to hire yourself out to. You will also find yourself free pk to any org on the lifer side if you use any of their classes - there were two rogue Templars who were hunted until they changed class less than 6 months ago, with admin blessing. So now you are factional aligned and locked in to certain classes, congratulations. Welcome to shadow side. Why not join a city and benefit from the ylem bonus? You don't fill a niche at all, being outside of one, that you couldn't fill inside one.

Theft is even worse, we will all hunt you forever. I promise you'll quit or hide enough in a safe room that you become irrelevant long before we get tired of killing you, theft is annoying.

Hopefully these brief examples are enough to overcome the massive experience you have with rogue groups elsewhere that us lesser being are not privy to. I'm happy to discuss more at length as needed.

Now for the more simple, and more on-topic point: titling. Let's say you really can do it. You are a sellsword org that is purely neutral. Everyone hires you, you're rich. With what authority do you title yourself? You don't have a city, or rank in an org that is officially recognized. You don't make treaties or have guards, you don't have a tutor, you don't have infrastructure and you sure as hell don't have the authority to grant a title because you're a nobody. You can pay someone to title you, maybe, but titling yourself is absurd - no one has to recognize you as a political entity. Titling is not just some appending of a string, it's a coded representation of beaurocracy in action. You have yet to explain why you as a random irrelevant group to the world at large can grant such a thing.

In conclusion, you are welcome to try rogue out. I hope it works but more established players have tried and failed, and your arrogance in handling such points is unimpressive. Clans have no authority to title because of their place in the world, and that should not change - my book club can't grant me knighthood, my city can.

Phoenecia

You keep saying that you don't want to hear the 'weak' excuse about Aetolia being different, yet at the same time, you keep ignoring or are willfully oblivious of other people's observations from YEARS of gameplay and their own experience of what works and what doesn't. 

@toz has pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why those factions you want don't exist in a player capacity.

People have tried to do the thief thing in the past. You know what's happened to every single one of them? Every one? They became pariahs to the entire game or eventually had to scale back their behavior or drop it entirely. As far as I know, none of them are around anymore. Theives are not treated kindly here, and you WILL get PKed into the dirt, and you WILL get ostracized by everyone. Then it's not so enjoyable for you anymore.

Mercenaries have likewise been done very poorly. They end up griefy and unpleasant. And as Toz mentioned, why would anyone hire you if they can just find someone on their respective side who can do it better, and for free?

Merchants are probably the one exception because some Crafters are so well known or good at what they do that they'll usually have everyone flocking to them. And in my experience? Shopkeepers who RP are typically very good, and very approachable. Across the board.

Back on the topic of titles, I was rogue for a very long time. Real life years. I still had Phoe walk around with a title, and having Teneric being able to change my title was convenient. When I was rogue more recently? Teneric was gone, and having forgotten to change my titles before I quit city and guild, it sucked. But you know what? I bit the bullet and dealt with it. The title was just an accessory I could do without, and even then, it came about more through RP than anything else. It's a perk of being a member of an org, and beyond a surname is something that's earned through reputation or deeds. If a titling NPC were to ever make a comeback, I can probably see it being limited to a surname, and that's it.

Kalak

I wonder who is the arrogant one. Me or the "established players" mm... I am rubber you are glue. This has been a very nice discussion. I shall leave smaller ideas thread to its own course.

Toz

That's not how that works, unfortunately. If you think you can perform at a higher level than any other player in the game and that we should all move aside and change solely for your benefit then you are being the textbook definition of arrogant. Words have a definite, specific meaning.

Furthermore, it is not mutually exclusive. I can be arrogant and you can be arrogant too. And while fallacy does not immediately defeat a point, the entirety of your argument being 'no u' in lieu of anything substantial is fairly telling and wholly in keeping with the reputation you are building for yourself.

Aishia

Haven

I think some of you guys are overreaching here.

@Kalak If you want to roleplay that way, feel free to pursue what you wish. While it is true that many have failed before you, I see no reason why you cannot have a turn. So long as you understand there will be consequences to your actions and you're having fun and not breaking Admin rules, have at it. Although I'm not sure why you'd be against just having an NPC unless I misunderstood. While larger orgs can title anywhere, you'd have to go to a single public room. Since map path exists, especially with gallop, why would this be a problem?

That said, I still think titling is fine via NPC as we had it before with virtually no issue as far as I'm aware and Delos existed since Aetolia's birth. Why would it be a problem now to bring that NPC back? I also do not see the combat issue anymore as it was resolved years ago. Most if not all systems can differentiate texts by color now and game text is colored different from says, etc. So unless a combatant is banking on someone coloring their own communication texts to match  regular game text color... I'm just not buying it'd be a combat issue. Then again it's been so long, am I missing something here?

Toz

None of us are arguing against the titling npc so far as I'm aware.

I don't care if someone wants to try rogue. I do care when it's couched as 'I don't feel like dealing with your pitiful arguments, so I won't give examples you just have to trust me' coming from someone newish to the game. Rogue has not worked in most ways to date and plenty have tried.

Also when are you coming back @Haven?

Haven

Toz said:

None of us are arguing against the titling npc so far as I'm aware.

I don't care if someone wants to try rogue. I do care when it's couched as 'I don't feel like dealing with your pitiful arguments, so I won't give examples you just have to trust me' coming from someone newish to the game. Rogue has not worked in most ways to date and plenty have tried.

Also when are you coming back @Haven?

Maybe when there's a war system in place!

Gunnald

It's weird that an administrative position seems to be "being a rogue is not acceptable and should not be encouraged or incentivized" and then there's an entirely new class built around the idea of a lone wanderer existing outside the confines of cities and guilds.

Haven

Gunnald said:

It's weird that an administrative position seems to be "being a rogue is not acceptable and should not be encouraged or incentivized" and then there's an entirely new class built around the idea of a lone wanderer existing outside the confines of cities and guilds.

On the surface, maybe. However, when you take into consideration multi-classing then not so much in my opinion. I would also argue that the Admin's stance isn't so much "rogue's are unacceptable" but more "rogue's will be limited". That said, there's still a lot of things rogue's can still accomplish in this game. You just have to get creative and take a more subtle or indirect approach to your goals.

Toz

With ylem buffs it IS a little weird, I agree. The theme doesn't quite fit in with the 2v2 we got going on.

Tiur

Maybe I'll write a big thing on the thought process behind orgs and inclusion.

@Haven War systems are... tough. We'll see you soon!

Gunnald

I should say: I don't disagree with the idea that rogues don't directly contribute to the overall well-being of the game in the same way that org-affiliated players do, and therefore it's not in the administration's best interest to make it just as easy and pain-free as city/council life is.

I'd just be more interested in knowing what the status of the Albedos project is and how Wayfarers were intended to fit into org-life on the mainland.

Antehe

Wayfarers aren't a guild for just that reason. It's training, offered by your Albedi friends to better help you in your battles, as both continents are realizing that what happens in one might (and has) impact the other.

Delve and the free peoples are not particularly interested in Sapience's politics outside of "are you going to be a threat or an ally," thus offering some training has no impact or consideration for tethers or organizations. Especially since, in the end of the day, when the Big Bad comes, Sapience has demonstrated a history of rallying together before picking each other off in their own squabbles later.

In this, the class, lore, and thematics are independent to our overall views and priorities on rogues.