Shapeshifter Skills Discussion

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  • MalokMalok Member Posts: 529 ✭✭✭✭
    So like, I was talking to @Ashmer about how it stinks that the easiest rip to get is Groinrip and its not the greatest one to get. I just thought it only halves Avoidance, because of the way the AB file is worded. He told me it adds a hinder to movement too, which I had no idea about(Unless hes wrong).

    Is there any possible way that someone in the Pools can go through Throatrip, Groinrip, and Spleenrip and actually put everything the abilities do into the AB file? Please @Oleis, @Keroc, @Razmael, someone? Pleeeeeease :(
    "Hell hath no hold on a warrior’s mind, see how the snow has made each of us blind. Vibrant colors spray from new dead, staining the earth such a beautiful red."
  • MalokMalok Member Posts: 529 ✭✭✭✭
    Thanks whoever did my request stealthily, @Keroc, @Oleis, @Razmael.

    It's excellent to know what the abilities actually do! :)

    Don't kill me either, but Quarter also incorrectly states it needs to be done by your packmates....

    <3

    Also, random question for anyone who may or may not know. I'll probably test this soon, but I may forget.

    Do Interchange or Converge trigger Deliverance?
    "Hell hath no hold on a warrior’s mind, see how the snow has made each of us blind. Vibrant colors spray from new dead, staining the earth such a beautiful red."
  • KerocKeroc A small cupboardMember, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 364 admin
    I updated the AB files for them to show what they currently do. Don't expect to see a lot of use though, they're rather lackluster. I might throw in some freebie upgrades at some point when I have a little time.

    RiluoMalok
  • MalokMalok Member Posts: 529 ✭✭✭✭
    Keroc said:

    I updated the AB files for them to show what they currently do. Don't expect to see a lot of use though, they're rather lackluster. I might throw in some freebie upgrades at some point when I have a little time.

    Thoatrip seems rather lackluster. Spleenrip is nuts, and Groinrip is kinda between.

    Though if you mean to upgrade all 3 for free, I'm all for it. :)

    I am just super pumped to actually have better documentation in general for the class. Definitely one of the purposes of this thread.

    For what it's worth, I wouldn't ever be looking for a rework for Shapeshifter, I actually think the class is really neat and interesting, but like I said a few posts back just needs some tweaks here and there. You're the best, @Keroc and roll!
    "Hell hath no hold on a warrior’s mind, see how the snow has made each of us blind. Vibrant colors spray from new dead, staining the earth such a beautiful red."
    Ishin
  • ReuxReux Member Posts: 251 ✭✭✭
    Groin rip is nuts. What are you smoking?
    I mean, you know, an amount.


    RiluoAshmer
  • AshmerAshmer Barefoot Adventurer LifeMember Posts: 1,095 ✭✭✭✭✭
    *spleenrip is nuts

    the way she tells me I'm hers and she is mine

    open hand or closed fist would be fine

    blood as rare and sweet as cherry wine

    Malok
  • KelliaraKelliara Member Posts: 469 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2015
    Hi, I'm a little late to this party, but I've been sick the last week or so. (That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!)


    -----
    Not to sound super-arrogant, (even though it probably will), I feel reasonably safe in saying that I probably PVP as a Shapeshifter more than anyone.

    So, a few bits of info that may put some confusion/discussion to rest, as well as observations, notes and miscellaneous thoughts related to my favourite class.

    (Note this are in the order that I remembered/found them going back through the previous posts, not the original order they were raised in. Sorry about the jumble.)

    1) Regarding the barreling @Ishin mentioned: It will 100% occur when you destroy a leg. It will 100% NOT occur if you destroy an arm, Gut, or Skullcrush. (Though if your opponent is in a position you can Skullcrush them there's no need to barrel them. They've got other problems.)

    2) All of the rips (as mentioned) aside from building towards a delicious meal, also have unpleasant side effects. Groinrip slows movement speed between rooms, and hurts someone's ability to dodge. Spleenrip messes with their ability to clot, which has the potential to be extremely dangerous for obvious reasons. And Throatrip not only stops someone from speaking, but also add a delay between when you smoke and when you get the effect. However, this is not particularly useful, since Shapeshifters have no ability to afflict with anything that requires smoking to cure.

    3) For the most part Rupture is largely useless. If you're determined to bleed your opponent to death it seems to me that you're much better off focusing on that specifically, rather than deciding to split your attention between causing the limb damage required to destroy-->lock-->rip/rupture. Quite honestly, the damage and bleeding from Jugularclaw is fairly impressive for such a simple attack. Even without adding the potential passive hemophilia in every bite attack with Salivate, and the permanent version caused by a ripped spleen, a careless opponent could (and some do) get very quickly overwhelmed by the straight-up damage, with the 200-300 some odd bleeding per claw added on top.

    I can't comment on Deathroll, Buffet or Gore, having never used them, but I do recall being told that the damage from Deathroll has the potential to be fairly painful, so it may well be worth using. Though I will say that I'm sad that only the "Battle-bacon" has another kill method.

    4) Regarding Quarter: The ability of a co-ordinated pair/group of Shapeshifters to kill a person/people in short order is very much a thing. If the requirements for quarter have changed since I started playing I haven't noticed. @Ishin said 9-10 seconds? That's not too far off the mark. I've definitely seen quicker, though.

    5) Spinalrip: As much as I'd like to see it be workable from prone, to be honest, I'm not entirely sure it needs to be. If anyone (myself included) finds themselves in a position where paralysis sticks to them, they deserve to be punished, and if my target IS prone, I'm probably busy trying to work towards a devour and would rather not waste a balance on something that's not going to help that all that much.

    6) Regarding Lacerate: My understanding of the way Shapeshifter combat works, at least with regards with to Ferality, is that Claws build to Bites. With the exception of the most basic bite (Bite) no other bite attack can be used without some sort of pre-existing condition. In Lacerate's case it requires torso damage. Sadly, the effort/reward ratio when it comes to Lacerate, similarly to it's little sister Rupture, makes it just not worth using. You can typically get a better result by concentrating on Jugularclawing, if you want to make your opponent bleed to death.

    That said, Rupture and Lacerate are two of the three things on my list of things to try and address in the next Liaison round that comes up.

    7) Shields, one of the banes of the Shapeshifter's existence. @Malok's suggestion is pretty cool, but I can't help but feel like that'd be too powerful. Destroying a shield + adding a long salve balance on top? It'd probably be better if was something like this --> "bitten_fingers" - Drastically increases the balance it takes to raise a defensive shield. (Shield tattoo, soul shield, sand shield, angel shield, etc, etc).

    8) @Malok: With regards to your sadness about that particular howl combination being the only effective one 1v1, I can assure you there are others out there. It depends largely on what you're attempting to do. Are you trying to muck up their salve balance? Mess with their offense? A combination of the two? Straight up deal damage to their face? The other point to note is, in spite of your disagreement that interchange will show your opponent what howls your swapping to, (something I have mixed feelings about myself) it's entirely possible to begin with one set of howls for one thing, say your example of Paralysis/Stupidity/Anorexia and swap to something like Recklessness/Sensitivity/Anorexia once you've got them on their back half-mauled and you're pushing for a kill. And then back again if they manage to get out from under you.

    I also feel obliged to point out that I've had a fair bit of success lately using a slightly different howl combination to the one you mentioned.
    ------


    And...uh...that's all I've got for now.

    I might have rambled on for way longer than I intended.

    I make no apologies.

    #shapeshifterpride.
    Now with 253% more Madness.
    Chibi-Kelli by @Eleanor.
    IshinMalokAldricLuna
  • AarbrokAarbrok Breaking things...For Science Portland, OregonMember Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ...and the Doyen has spoke.

    Also @Kelliara on the forums, what the unicorns is this.

    Xenia
  • KelliaraKelliara Member Posts: 469 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2015
    Aarbrok said:

    ...and the Doyen has spoke.

    Also @Kelliara on the forums, what the unicorns is this.

    The end is nigh...

    -Edit: Oops, it suddenly occurred to me that I should advise people against reading too much into that.

    Back to the topic at hand!
    Now with 253% more Madness.
    Chibi-Kelli by @Eleanor.
    Aarbrok
  • MalokMalok Member Posts: 529 ✭✭✭✭
    I've learned a lot more about Shapeshifter since starting the thread. I'm getting a hang on how to be effective, but my opinion of small tweaks still being needed still rings true. I would like to see Lacerate and Rupture both made to be less useless, however, I will say that I have my offense setup in such a way that once you have ripped spleen is the only time I use Lacerate. If they parry their head to prevent Jugulars, you can go for torso damage and if you hit torso_damaged you can throw in Lacerate, and in testing it does 21% of my target's max health plus an immense amount of bleed. It's not entirely useless, but it's only useful if you're going for a bleed kill off ripped_spleen and they're being stubborn about blocking your Jugulars. Because you will go for Bodypunch/Jugular or whatever anyways, so you may as well use torso_damaged in some fashion if you can to press more bleeding.

    As for Rupture, yeah, its very sad that these skills are horrible. Gore inparticular makes no sense to me. In testing, my Rupture does about 35-40% of their max health in damage...and Gore instakills at 25% or less? Uh...if they're at 40% i'm already killing them anyways with Rupture? I don't get it.

    @Keroc mentioned he may buff Throatrip, Groinrip, and Spleenrip at some point in some way. That would be nice. The Throatrip is the hardest to pull off and also the most useless.

    I like the class, and I'm getting better with it for sure but it would be sweet to see it changed some more in a way. I hope we can work together on this in the next round of liaisons, @Kelliara.

    Also, on my list of things to do in the future is make an .mpackage for mudlet and Oasis users to setup Quarter teams in a newbie friendly way. Mmmm. Synergy.

    "Hell hath no hold on a warrior’s mind, see how the snow has made each of us blind. Vibrant colors spray from new dead, staining the earth such a beautiful red."
  • KelliaraKelliara Member Posts: 469 ✭✭✭✭
    Malok said:

    If they parry their head to prevent Jugulars, you can go for torso damage and if you hit torso_damaged you can throw in Lacerate, and in testing it does 21% of my target's max health plus an immense amount of bleed. It's not entirely useless, but it's only useful if you're going for a bleed kill off ripped_spleen and they're being stubborn about blocking your Jugulars. Because you will go for Bodypunch/Jugular or whatever anyways, so you may as well use torso_damaged in some fashion if you can to press more bleeding.

    Lacerate causes only slightly more bleeding than a single claw to the jugular, from what I've been able to determine, at less balance, and with the ability to combine it with a break, or another attack. (Such as the Bodypunch you mentioned). I get taking advantage of what's in front of you, i.e. capitalising on a broken torso, but again, like Rupture, and as I said in my original post, the reward for the effort put into it just doesn't seem quite high enough in my view. (Though lacerate isn't nearly as bad as Rupture in this respect.)

    When I tested before making my original response to this thread Lacerating my target dealt ~13% of their total HP as damage, and ~220 bleeding. 2x Jugularclaw, did ~16% and ~400 bleeding. And that was with one of the claws being diverted.
    Malok said:

    As for Rupture, yeah, its very sad that these skills are horrible. Gore inparticular makes no sense to me. In testing, my Rupture does about 35-40% of their max health in damage...and Gore instakills at 25% or less? Uh...if they're at 40% i'm already killing them anyways with Rupture? I don't get it.

    If your Rupture is doing that high of a % of your Victim's HP, your rips will be doing a few % more, (though with less bleeding), in addition to giving you a rip you'd need for a Devour.

    To be honest, I struggle trying to think of an occasion where I'd prefer to Rupture over a rip. If I've already Spleenripped, and my victim is prone and ready for a lock, chances are I can leverage their being behind in their salve curing to start putting pressure on their legs, or head for the next rip I need. Rather than wasting the time Locking--> Rupturing, I could be breaking/mangling/destroying my way to a groinrip while they're off salve balance curing their arms.
    Malok said:

    ...The Throatrip is the hardest to pull off and also the most useless.

    This isn't exactly true. Quite a few of my Devours in recent spars have been working off a Throatrip being the first rip I apply. It might just be you need to have a rethink of the way you go about aiming for it.

    I will agree though it's probably the least useful of the three in terms of the benefit of the affliction.
    Now with 253% more Madness.
    Chibi-Kelli by @Eleanor.
  • MalokMalok Member Posts: 529 ✭✭✭✭
    From what I can tell, going for Spleenrip and just causing a lot of bleeding will be way more consistent of a kill then trying to go for a Devour. At least in a one on one scenario.

    Though if I didn't have level 3 shapeshifter claws, going for a Devour may actually be better. I dunno.

    Devour seems to be a lot to work for in most cases. In lessers you will likely never get all 3 rips on someone before they just die to damage from yourself and everyone else. In 1v1 it seems okay if you don't have artifacts or high strength.

    I would love to do a Devour on someone, but I've never gotten the opportunity to do it yet in testing before they just die to overwhelming damage.
    "Hell hath no hold on a warrior’s mind, see how the snow has made each of us blind. Vibrant colors spray from new dead, staining the earth such a beautiful red."
  • MalokMalok Member Posts: 529 ✭✭✭✭
    After testing things with Shapeshifter a bit more with @Ashmer, I'm at a loss as to how Rupture and its variants can be so weak compared to just using Jugular.

    I got a Spleenrip on @Ashmer in testing. Then my system does what it does and goes for Jugulars or Torso strikes, depending on the person's parry. He was able to just match my system with manual parrying, blocking all damage. In this instance, if I was to program it into my offense, I would likely just start going for the arms and legs and start working for a jawlock again. The result being that when someone is jawlocked(According to @Ashmer), they cannot parry. And you can throw an unparryable Jugular combo out while jawlocking someone before they writhe.

    My problem with this is...why is this more effective than just hitting a Rupture off of the same jawlock?

    I think if you have a jawlock on someone, the thing to do every time should be to either rip or Rupture. It should not be to use Jugular combo just because it's strictly better than Rupture, given that people like @Kelliara have stated that the purpose of the class is to use claws to build towards bites.

    Please buff the Rupture variants. I'd rather see than the rips being buffed. @Keroc
    "Hell hath no hold on a warrior’s mind, see how the snow has made each of us blind. Vibrant colors spray from new dead, staining the earth such a beautiful red."
    Didi
  • RiluoRiluo The DoctorMember Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2015
    I am trying to set up this class currently and this has been very helpful. I just need to be clear on a few basics as limb classes go over my head currently. I aim for rend/hamstrings to gain breaks first or flurry. What is the concise with this?

    Once I get a break I aim to destroy then mutilate or should I aim to destroy another limb?

    Is it better to throw out random bodypunches or combined it from time to time with a rend for example or a jugular?

    Thanks :)

    Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."

    Malok
  • MalokMalok Member Posts: 529 ✭✭✭✭
    Here's what I've discerned from playing this class for weeks now and changing up my offense a bazillion times. Because of the way resto/jecis work, you need to be as fast as possible. To that end, doing the slow attacks like bodypunch or spinalcrack isn't terribly worth it. Yes, doing the stun and/or paresis from the two can clear a parry, but its only temporary and is usually right back where it was when you regain balance. It's better in my experience to just change your attack based on their parry tendencies.

    I've tried about every combination you can think of as far as going break/break then damage/damage or damage/mangle the same, etc etc.

    You will likely start out with using 2x jugular, or 2x slash torso. Once they press jecis/use resto, you go for the legs. You can also go for the arms, but it doesn't stop them from doing anything quite like the legs do. The arms do have the advantage of stopping touching tree or shield tattoo, though. What will happen at this point is when you get balance back they will likely have cured one leg or the other, but you can usually get a level 2 break(Ferality Mangle) on the one that is not. Then, they will either parry or not. If they don't, you can advance it to level 2 again(they will usually have healed it) at this point you can go for level 3 break(Ferality Destroy), and when you do, regardless of if they're curing it or not, you start going for either double arm break or double torso slash, with the objective being to go for an Armpitlock.

    Once you get ripped spleen on someone, they will have a very difficult time not dying to like 2k damage bleed ticks if you play your cards right from here.

    In my testing, 2x Jugular does 400 bleeding, and 2x Slash(with no target so they can't parry it) does 200 bleeding.

    Oh, and also, the howls you pick are largely utilitarian. They exist largely to put them off of tree tattoo so that they can't touch tree to stop your level 1 breaks. I also recently took to when I Spleenrip someone I also switch to Enfeebling/Baleful/Wailing, which in testing against myself with 32% Psychic audit did 25% of my max health in damage when it hit.

    These are all opinions and results of testing and trying a bazillion different things. I'm sure other fighters like @Kelliara or @Ishin will tell you different things, but I think I have my own offense in a solid place now, and I'll send you a link to what it looks like in hastebin, @Riluo.
    "Hell hath no hold on a warrior’s mind, see how the snow has made each of us blind. Vibrant colors spray from new dead, staining the earth such a beautiful red."
    Riluo
  • RiluoRiluo The DoctorMember Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭
    Thanks mate this is a perfect guide to get me motivated :) and cheers for the ideas too.

    Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."

    Malok
  • MalokMalok Member Posts: 529 ✭✭✭✭
    Speaking of Shapeshifters, I keep thinking about the class and some of its weaknesses, both mechanically and thematically.

    So, here's an idea I have, @Keroc. I dunno if you care or not, but here we go.

    New skill at Transcendent in either Ferality or Shapeshifting called Bloodfrenzy.

    In an effort to make Madness more interesting and make you want a higher amount of it than for just damage, and to shore up some of the classes's weaknesses, I propose the aforementioned skill of Bloodfrenzy(or whatever you wanna rename it to) that gives you certain passive abilities when you're at certain Madness thresholds. Additionally, while in possession of this skill, or you could make it an actual toggle ability, you will gain more madness while in the presence of enemies who are bleeding, proportionate to the amount of bleeding damage.

    25% - Claw Attacks strip shield defense.

    50% - Thickhide grants additional cutting/blunt audit.

    75% - Rupture Variants do something only cured by time that help advance gaining Jawlocks in some manner, or perhaps just increased damage.

    100% - Ferality attacks cannot be parried.

    This could be tweaked, but you get the idea.

    Thoughts?
    "Hell hath no hold on a warrior’s mind, see how the snow has made each of us blind. Vibrant colors spray from new dead, staining the earth such a beautiful red."
  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker VirginiaMember, Guildmaster Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hey man, if it works for you, don't let anyone else tell you different because something else works for them. If anything, just take what they tell you and see if it makes sense for you. If it does, great. If it doesn't, oh well. It's really good to see you working your own unicorns out and coming up with your own unicorns, though, despite what others have said. My own experience is from a couple of RL years ago, but tbh, Shapeshifter hasn't changed much since back then.
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    learn.
    -Benjamin Franklin
    MalokKelliara
  • KelliaraKelliara Member Posts: 469 ✭✭✭✭
    Malok said:

    Speaking of Shapeshifters, I keep thinking about the class and some of its weaknesses, both mechanically and thematically.

    So, here's an idea I have, @Keroc. I dunno if you care or not, but here we go.

    New skill at Transcendent in either Ferality or Shapeshifting called Bloodfrenzy.

    In an effort to make Madness more interesting and make you want a higher amount of it than for just damage, and to shore up some of the classes's weaknesses, I propose the aforementioned skill of Bloodfrenzy(or whatever you wanna rename it to) that gives you certain passive abilities when you're at certain Madness thresholds. Additionally, while in possession of this skill, or you could make it an actual toggle ability, you will gain more madness while in the presence of enemies who are bleeding, proportionate to the amount of bleeding damage.

    25% - Claw Attacks strip shield defense.

    50% - Thickhide grants additional cutting/blunt audit.

    75% - Rupture Variants do something only cured by time that help advance gaining Jawlocks in some manner, or perhaps just increased damage.

    100% - Ferality attacks cannot be parried.

    This could be tweaked, but you get the idea.

    Thoughts?

    1) 100% Madness sends you berserk, randomly attacking other people until you kill or are killed. This (to my knowledge) is like a Vampire's blood rage in that the player loses all control, so any benefit you get from being completely Mad will be totally lost in that you can't actually control what you're doing.

    2) Madness is supposed to INCREASE the damage you deal and take. So 50% Madness increasing your audit either runs counter to this, or is made redundant.

    3) Bloodfrenzy sounds too Vampirey, to me.

    Despite the fact it sounds like I'm totally dissing your idea, I actually really love the idea of doing something to make Madness less of "that thing you deal with sometimes so you can get back to your other class" and more of something that actually can play a part in your PK, bashing, or whatever.

    Though, I think it'd be better if it was a double-edged sword. Rather than just flat higher madness = better effects, instead higher madness = better effects + more downsides/risk. Yes, you get this huge boost to your offense, but your defense is reduced so much that if you misplay your hand, you're toast. (As a bit of an example)

    Additionally, I haven't mentioned this much to anyone, but given the way this thread seems to have a pair of legs that wants to run for a while, I will now:

    For a long time I've been thinking about certain aspects of the Shapeshifter class. Not just the skills which need looking at (Rupture, Lacerate, etc etc) but how the skillsets work together, and so on.

    This is just me, but I love the idea of having three skillsets the work off of one another. Or two, even, with the third providing utility. I.E Shapeshifting = Utility, and Ferality+Vocalizing synergizing together a bit more than they do. As it stands the two feel quite separate to me, you throw howls up and just sort of let them do their thing while you use Ferality to tear your opponent apart.

    I've been toying with a bunch of ideas for ages, which I'll mention if people are interested to hear. If not, nevermind!
    Now with 253% more Madness.
    Chibi-Kelli by @Eleanor.
  • MalokMalok Member Posts: 529 ✭✭✭✭
    I'd be interested to hear your ideas as well. My idea was just kinda thrown out there, because I think that Madness is really kinda...pointless, to be honest, or not as fleshed out as it could be. And the class does have issues with people spamming shield tattoo and the Rupture variants being useless.

    Also, the class is already not tanky whatsoever, even with protection amulet(which I have), I have like 41 cutting and 34 blunt. As far as I know Madness doesn't actually increase the damage you take, just the damage you put out. At least thats what the helpfile says. I don't think it needs to make Shapeshifters take more either because like I said...really squishy as it is.

    The more I think about it and use it, Vocalizing really is a very poor skillset. It doesn't synergize very well at all with Ferality. It's a bunch of easily cured herb afflictions for a class that pushes salve balances.

    Still though, I don't necessarily think the class needs a rework. Just tweaked. Like liaison style.

    So, I definitely intend on using next round of liaisons to fix at least a couple of things with the class.

    A question though for those who have used it...

    How exactly does Packhowl work? I have never seen anyone use Packhowl, I don't know what the afflictions that you can howl are exactly, and the syntax says packhowl but does that only make you all do the same one, or what? Very confusing the way the AB file is written, and it seems nearly impossible finding a pack these days. Just curious if anyone has any insight.

    Thanks!
    "Hell hath no hold on a warrior’s mind, see how the snow has made each of us blind. Vibrant colors spray from new dead, staining the earth such a beautiful red."
  • KelliaraKelliara Member Posts: 469 ✭✭✭✭
    Malok said:



    How exactly does Packhowl work? I have never seen anyone use Packhowl, I don't know what the afflictions that you can howl are exactly, and the syntax says packhowl but does that only make you all do the same one, or what? Very confusing the way the AB file is written, and it seems nearly impossible finding a pack these days. Just curious if anyone has any insight.

    Thanks!

    I use Packhowl when I have the chance. It's basically a bayed howl across an entire area, that afflicts everyone on your enemies list. As far as I know, it's on its own sort of balance, and takes it from all the present pack members. So you can't have five people each packhowling a different affliction.

    As far as finding a pack goes, there's like 20 or so of them. They can be seen in PACK RANKINGS, along with their leaders.
    Now with 253% more Madness.
    Chibi-Kelli by @Eleanor.
    Malok
  • MalokMalok Member Posts: 529 ✭✭✭✭
    I've been playing around with my offense some more and while I have it in a pretty good place, and can regularly get all 3 rips throughout a fight, I find it's kinda random at times what fate hands me in regards to what bodypart gets jawlocked or ripped first.

    I'm fine with this, but it also makes me sad that Throatrip is so horrible. There is literally not a single affliction that we can give that is cured by tinctures/pipes.

    To this end, I intend to liaison report for Throatrip in October and would be interested in hearing some opinions about what should be submitted. I think that since an elixir is drank down your throat, it would fit thematically for ripped_throat to reduce the effectiveness of elixirs by a certain percentage, or perhaps delay them(the way the tinctures/pipes are in the current iteration.)

    I also intend to submit my second report for Interchange, with the goal to be to fix the horrible way setting up the 3 howls currently works. I really feel like we should be able to Interchange 3 howls from having 0. This would half how long it takes to setup 3 howls currently, which I feel would be entirely fair. In fact, it may not even go far enough, tbh.

    Curious what people who play the class think. Thanks!
    "Hell hath no hold on a warrior’s mind, see how the snow has made each of us blind. Vibrant colors spray from new dead, staining the earth such a beautiful red."
    Riluo
  • RiluoRiluo The DoctorMember Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2015
    Simply put interchange is a horrendous skill that makes me fume. If it could be fixed to be a one time defensive that allows for instant howl changes from none to three instantly it would be fine.

    Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."

    Malok
  • KelliaraKelliara Member Posts: 469 ✭✭✭✭
    Riluo said:

    Simply put interchange is a horrendous skill that makes me fume. If it could be fixed to be a one time defensive that allows for instant howl changes from none to three instantly it would be fine.

    Hey, sorry to be a pain @Riluo , could you please elaborate about what parts of interchange make you fume? Just for the sake of my own curiosity.
    Now with 253% more Madness.
    Chibi-Kelli by @Eleanor.
  • RiluoRiluo The DoctorMember Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭
    It is more in regards to having to set up all these howls long before you enter a fight, then you can interchange. In my mind it should be a one time defence that you set up. For example:
    LYCAN INTERCHANGING on/off
    which requires both bal and eq to activate. 
    Then has a balance/eq cost of 5 secs.


    Then you can just simply use ye old school:
    
    INTERCHANGE <vocal1> <vocal2> <vocal3>

    Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."

  • KelliaraKelliara Member Posts: 469 ✭✭✭✭
    Riluo said:

    It is more in regards to having to set up all these howls long before you enter a fight, then you can interchange. In my mind it should be a one time defence that you set up. For example:

    LYCAN INTERCHANGING on/off
    which requires both bal and eq to activate. 
    Then has a balance/eq cost of 5 secs.


    Then you can just simply use ye old school:
    
    INTERCHANGE <vocal1> <vocal2> <vocal3>
    @Riluo: While it doesn't really address your issues with Interchange, I do have a suggestion which may (or may not) help.

    Perhaps think of howls as one of your usual defenses to be set up along with boneshaking, snarling, and all your other shapeshifter defenses when you first defup, and simply keep them running at all times. You can always turn disregarding on, and converge your howls on yourself to ensure you're not going to accidentally afflict people who stand in a room with you for too long. As long as you're not echoing, you won't have to worry about being afflicted by your own howls. Then all you need to do is converge your howls on your target (or no one) when you're ready for a proper fight.

    (Just don't do what I do 1/2 the time and forget to change your target when you next get into combat. Clawing your own arms and legs definitely doesn't help get a kill.)

    This, of course, comes with the downside of draining your endurance with constant howling.

    And, as I said, it doesn't address your fuming about having to prepare your howls in advance, really. It's mostly just something that might prove to be a useful way of dealing with howls in the meantime.

    I'm sort of in two minds about the howls set up. On the one hand, making it so putting up howls is on its own balance does mean you have to have some forethought moving into a fight, and I like that you have to plan a bit in advance. But on the other hand it means that if you DON'T have your howls set up as noted above, getting jumped unexpectedly renders a not-insignifigant part of your offense ineffectual for the first chunk of the fight, while you wait for two howl balances to return to have your three howls.

    I think, since Interchange means you can entirely change your howl set up in one howl balance anyway, it should allow you to use INTERCHANGE (howl1) (howl2) (howl3) command to start up three howls from silence using only one lot of balance.
    Now with 253% more Madness.
    Chibi-Kelli by @Eleanor.
    AarbrokIshin
  • MalokMalok Member Posts: 529 ✭✭✭✭
    Yeah, that's what I meant from what I intend to liaison, @Kelliara. There's really no reason that howls should take 60 seconds to put up. Given that Interchange is so far up the skillset too, it should probably be more powerful than it is by doing what all of us think it should. I'll be putting it in a report in October for sure!
    "Hell hath no hold on a warrior’s mind, see how the snow has made each of us blind. Vibrant colors spray from new dead, staining the earth such a beautiful red."
  • SatomiSatomi Member Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    Interchange will be for Vocalizing as Imprint is for Tarot? Yes?

  • MalokMalok Member Posts: 529 ✭✭✭✭
    Satomi said:

    Interchange will be for Vocalizing as Imprint is for Tarot? Yes?

    Not really. It's a lot different. Basically instead of typing howl paralyzing, waiting 20 seconds, typing howl muddling, waiting 20 seconds, and typing howl mind-numbing, then being off 20 seconds of balance before you can interchange before I fight...

    We'd rather be able to just have no howls up and type interchange muddling paralyzing mind-numbing, have it take the 30s of balance it does right now, and have all 3 howls up.

    Truthfully there's a few other things I'd like to fix with Shapeshifters as well, but Interchange and Throatrip are probably what I'm gonna go with personally for next month's round.
    "Hell hath no hold on a warrior’s mind, see how the snow has made each of us blind. Vibrant colors spray from new dead, staining the earth such a beautiful red."
  • IrruelIrruel Member Posts: 650 ✭✭✭✭
    Throatrip affecting smoking was supposed to make it remotely feasible to achieve a facemaul.
    Did it ever? I don't recall testing the timing on this at any point while I was still properly active, and I'm not in a position to do the testing now.

    (But I am interested.)

    Facemaul is nasty - the damage and bleeding make it a kill route if you can get them in a position to chain them. This was just never actually achievable.
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