Monk changes

RiluoRiluo The DoctorMember Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭
edited June 2015 in Sparring Grounds
Looking for constructive input from all parties, so no flaming or acting like children please.



So looking for ideas to sort this out, as it is very frustrating. Firstly, monk class changes are fantastic, however they seem way to powerful now and I know several others have said this in recent days, including other mid-tiers like me and several high-tier fighters. So what can be done to correct this? I am no expert on the class but I have picked up on a few distinct patterns that are causing concern.

The things I have noticed is the class is becoming a hidden limb damager with only the need to “Kaistrike a random leg”, “mindblank” for 50 secs and blackout by which point they are down with level3 breaks. The other issue is this coupled with insane damage to both limb amounts and health since the change has made the class incredible dangerous to fight.


Question for both players and admin ( @razmael @dristin @oleis)

Therefore, what is the thought behind the changes and what can be done to tone it down. Is it possible to make kaistrike not work in conjunction with mindblank, or even tweak mindblank to be less of an issue now that the class is so powerful at damaging and really does not need the skill to be competent anymore it was added because limb damage was originally not enough for a break? . Alternatively could the limb damage be reduced somewhat, as it only takes a few hits to a limb or the head for high level breaks at which point you are passed out and it’s all over as you cannot repair the limbs fast enough to stand/shield.


So what ideas do people have to tweak these new changes in a manner that is still balanced. Or stating just learn to heal, because it is our top fighters who are having issues too.

Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."

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Comments

  • AarbrokAarbrok Breaking things...For Science Portland, OregonMember Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I do not consider myself a fighter at all whatsoever, but I have noticed a bit of trouble in the ability to handle damage of monks, which is why I started playing Monk class, as two monk combos essentially kills me, I can be bashed to death with no setup.

    I dont know if there is some tactic I am missing somewhere, but perhaps I am not curing something or I am missing something super important, which could very well be the case, but I mean...I hope at least this conversation stays civil and finds a nice common ground, cause when I am damaging people to death with no offensive artifacts whatsoever,(which I am fine with)...it just seems a bit easy and takes away skill.

    I am interested in reading what other folks think.

  • TragerTrager Raiding your underwear drawer.Member Posts: 568 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just a few points I've either heard or thought up myself regarding monks:

    Blackout: Since the change that put Mind Blackout on a cooldown basis, I think it's gotten a lot more manageable. I treat blackout one of two ways, myself. First, I assume that blackout is, depending on how they've been fighting, going to focus on one of my legs. Little things like, parrying the most damaged leg in blackout, or even choosing a random one, help I've found. I almost always queue wounds after blackout. For a 1.5 second bal/eq cost, it's highly worth it. From there, I can see where they spread their damage out during the blackout. My second tactic during blackout is just run. Run, run, and run some more. Run and shield to watch for JPK. Run and fly. Run and do something to help mitigate whatever it is they're trying to accomplish in Blackout. Sounds like an easy way to stalemate, but well, sucks to be them.

    Mind Blank: I know you've been privy to quite a few monk conversations regarding mind blank. There are definitely ways to -help- decipher which limb is being attacked (At the very least you can tell whether it's an arm, leg, head or torso). The rest of the guess work can be made up with a quick wounds, in my opinion. Honestly, I would feel very sorry for monks that didn't have mind blank, trying to compete purely without.

    The Damage: I can say with a certainty who it is you're referring to with the unconsciousness (TotallynotlookingatKamus). That tactic is extremely special as it depends on the monk damaging you below 40% health and THEN you attacking, hello Pinchblock. Once you're unconscious, well, have fun with the AXK. Best advice I can give there is that I feel monks right now can either go predominantly damage focused, or limb focused. If they're trying to damage you down, 9/10 they're going to be focusing on your head and torso, which is going to be a lot easier switching parry between than if you included both arms and legs. I will say that if my little non-artifacted bum can hang more than half the time, I have faith that you can too. Remember the basics. Refining shell, blueorb, armor, scythestance, etc.

    Hope some of this helped. I haven't really come across anything really troubling with monk so far that I don't think I could eventually work around if I had the motivation, to be honest. Well, besides a forced tumble/6 second bal/eq. <3

    RiluoLim
  • SerriceSerrice the Black Fox Member Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    An intelligent parry system, diligent wounds checking after blackout and enough mind blank checks, and kai strike tracking go a long way to mitigate the limb offense potential of a monk.
     
    TragerLim
  • AarbrokAarbrok Breaking things...For Science Portland, OregonMember Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Serrice - I dont know what any of that means, but I will assume that requires knowledge of coding and combat...so I suppose I am SOL.

    Trager
  • TragerTrager Raiding your underwear drawer.Member Posts: 568 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Serrice said:

    An intelligent parry system, diligent wounds checking after blackout and enough mind blank checks, and kai strike tracking go a long way to mitigate the limb offense potential of a monk.

    To be fair, you are one of two, MAYBE three people that I know that have anything resembling an intelligent parry setup. For most, it goes far beyond the bounds of simple coder, or even competent coder.

    Aarbrok
  • SerriceSerrice the Black Fox Member Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't know about how difficult it is to code, and I would be a bad judge anyways since I code for a living.

    Coming up with a scheme of what to parry/pre-restore is all combat knowledge, though. It's experience, and an understanding of what the class can do and how, and how abilities work.
     
  • LimLim Member Posts: 591 ✭✭✭✭
    Trager and Serrice have got it covered. Am particularly impressed with Trager's circumspection and analysis. 

    Only thing I'd address is that the force mind command tumble is an 'end fight' tactic. It helps seal the kill - it doesn't get you there. If it is being applied, it's because you're already on the way to the Underhalls. The monk could just as easily wrench spam to further escalate into a head wrench and axe kick. Mind command just allows for a bbt kill where there is a double leg break. 
    Trager
  • LimLim Member Posts: 591 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    @Aarbrok : if damage is your issue, what Trager said about parrying addresses it. Don't worry about 'smart parry' and that jazz just yet. I parry manually against Kamus myself because he invariably uses this route. 

    Focus your parry on your torso and head. Monk damage was nerfed for arms and legs in a previous liaison round so that it would be easier to mitigate the damage pressure through parry. Combo damage bashing only works on head and torso. Parry some of those and the monk won't do nearly enough to you, while also neglecting the limbs. Meanwhile, you're building on them freely and without hinder. 
    Trager
  • LimLim Member Posts: 591 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    'Smart parry' just means conditional parrying. just like how you have a priority list for curing affs, you should work towards the same for limbs. E.g. if infernal seal is on,  parry head. 
  • AarbrokAarbrok Breaking things...For Science Portland, OregonMember Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    I have no idea what that means, but okay.
    Thank you for explaining it though, it does kinda make sense, just taking over 3000 damage each time I get hit is quite a bit when I have 6000 health, thats fifty percent, just seems like alot.

  • LimLim Member Posts: 591 ✭✭✭✭
    I'll also add that kai strike isn't hidden (in fact it is easier to detect which limb is targetted), or even unblockable damage. It's deferred damage. If you are waking up from it with a mangled break, you're not paying attention. 
  • LimLim Member Posts: 591 ✭✭✭✭
    Aarbrok said:
    I have no idea what that means, but okay. Thank you for explaining it though, it does kinda make sense, just taking over 3000 damage each time I get hit is quite a bit when I have 6000 health, thats fifty percent, just seems like alot.
    Yeah, I take that sort of damage too. It's perfectly normal so no worries. Trust me when I say we all have the tools to counter it.  

    The catch to that route is that the monk needs to deliver that damage nearly consecutively and uninterrupted in order to kill you. When you parry one or two or half of those, on top of dodge, divert, (or if you really need, shield)  they will get nowhere. 
  • SerriceSerrice the Black Fox Member Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Also, honestly, I don't know if mind command tumble even works anymore since you need to have a broken leg for the bbt death counter to increase. Previously, you could use it to turn a situation where you'd normally only get two bbts in into a full three bbts, but that's not applicable anymore, since on the third bbt they'd have both legs cured already.
     
  • LimLim Member Posts: 591 ✭✭✭✭
    On the flip side, monks do have a slight problem with running. Jpk helps, but I'm still waiting for mind tether to be implemented. 
  • IlyonIlyon Member Posts: 746 ✭✭✭
    Not having a first-hand experience with the latest changes in a 1v1 setting (they're -very- good in teams, but then so are many other things) makes it a bit tricky for me to comment, but the proposed methods for dealing with the monk offense, as described, do feel like an unreasonably high barrier of entry, which I assume wasn't really the intent. So some further review of all this would be good to see.

  • NalorNalor UKMember Posts: 774 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    I do think the main thing is, and I've bugged it but blackout is bugged or been changed.

    It used to show the symptoms of breaks but now it doesn't show anything.

    But everything else mentioned here is just down to prerestoring or parrying.

    I' ve been sparring a lot with conner to try fix my monk offence and that's the main thing I've noticed, before in blackout if a break happened, it would show "you limb breaks from all the damage" etc but now it doesn't show that so totally relying on wounds after blackout which then slows everything down.
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  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai Member Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't think 44% damage combo's are balanced in any world or any reality. You can do less damage than that and still force my parry back to my torso and away from limbs, but that type of damage is flat out stupid and even after listening to everyone and calming down from my initial knee jerk reaction of wtf omg I still think anyone and everyone who thinks that damage is fine needs checked into a unicorns mental hospital.
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



    IshinMalok
  • NalorNalor UKMember Posts: 774 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    Maybe you should invest in armour and defences if your getting 44% damage, I didn't even get that before the changing in damage which recently happened..

    Would love to know who your getting that from and what your audit is?
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  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai Member Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nalor said:

    Maybe you should invest in armour and defences if your getting 44% damage, I didn't even get that before the changing in damage which recently happened..

    Would love to know who your getting that from and what your audit is?

    Brilliant.

    I'm not going to post my audit. Make another blind assumption instead.
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



  • NalorNalor UKMember Posts: 774 ✭✭✭
    Then no offence then don't complain at being hit for 44% of your damage if you're not willing to say what your audit is, or who ever was hitting you, As artifacts v none artifacts is a big difference as it always has been.

    And as mentioned I'm sure in many different topics class v class changes depending on which class is fighting which class as some do better then others.

    Conner hits me for about 25/30% of my health and I have no artifacts and he has artifacts but my audit is about 50/55% depending on my class.
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  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I get hit for 42% with a 48 blunt audit. And a 48 blunt audit is pretty high, given I'm wearing fullplate with soul fracture up.
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I'll still never forget the first time I saw Toz throwing hammers."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I freaked out and thought they had somehow managed to pull me into them."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "So I tumbled away from my team and into theirs."


  • ReuxReux Member Posts: 251 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    I'm artifacted out and I want to see what my lowest audit class, shapeshifter, gets hit for from some full combos. I remember being a monk before endgame trying to fight off bloodborn and my damage getting practically ignored, regardless of the statpack I tried to use.

    Talmord, not endgame, and Edhain, also not endgame, were the only ones that couldn't stand for too long under the strain, and both were agile.

    Current audit below.
    +-- Resistances ------------------------+-- Avoidance -------------------------+
    Cutting | 25% 0% 53% 45% Dodge Chance | 13% 16%
    Blunt | 25% 0% 53% 45% Divert Chance | 29% 29%
    Magic | 25% 24% 0% 43% Divert Block | 24% 24%
    Fire | 30% 24% 0% 47% +-- Miscellaneous ---------------------+
    Cold | 30% 24% 0% 47% Experience Bonus | 25%
    Electric | 30% 24% 0% 47% Crit. Chance | 51.23%
    Poison | 15% 24% 0% 36% Celerity | 4 rp/.5s
    Psychic | 15% 24% 0% 36% Mana Drain | 0
    Asphyxiation | 15% 24% 0% 36% Willpower Drain | 0
    Spirit | 15% 0% 0% 15% Endurance Drain | 0
    Shadow | 25% 0% 0% 25%
    +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

    The following abilities and items are protecting you from Blunt damage:
    Energy Shell: 5%
    Miasma: 10%
    Thickhide: 40%
    Protection Artifact: 13%
    Racial Resistance: 10%

    + Reux Ve'kahi -----------------------------------------------------------+
    | Strength : 17(+2) Dexterity : 14(+1) Timeout : 30 minutes |
    | Intelligence : 12(+1) Constitution : 15(+3) Statpack : Muscular |
    +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+

    + Reux Ve'kahi --------------------------------------------------------------+
    | Race: Undead Azudim | Health: 5772/5772 | Endurance: 29888/24900 |
    | Sex: Male | Mana: 4446/4446 | Willpower: 19380/19380 |
    +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

    215811 An amulet of scratched ezerite Being held by Reux
    * protection, enhancement(2), constitution(2)

    You have invested 5 enhancement points and have 0 remaining to use.
    You have invested 3 augmetic enhancement points and have 0 remaining to use.
    You have obtained the following enhancements:

    Stats Speed Prots Resst Ament
    - Dex - Bal - Cut - Fir - MHP x3
    - Ele
    Post edited by Reux on
    I mean, you know, an amount.


  • AarbrokAarbrok Breaking things...For Science Portland, OregonMember Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I get hit for about 44% as a Cabalist wearing Chainmail with a Tower Shield....I am pretty sure my audit was somewhere like 44 - 46 Percent, so I totally believe that Armour is not doing much in the way of protection.

  • TragerTrager Raiding your underwear drawer.Member Posts: 568 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Something I have noticed during lesser fights is the few times I'm in monk/daru from bashing is that there are usually only 1-2 people on the enemy team parrying torso or head.

    To be doing that kind of damage, with those defenses you're listing, the monks has to literally be targeting the head or the torso. The most popular monk attack as far as I know is COMBO TAR SDK UCP UCP. What this equates to in layman's terms is one kick to the torso and two punches to the head. If people would take the time to parry ONE OF THOSE BODY PARTS, I can promise you that your chances of survival, at least lengthening it, will be improved tenfold. Unfortunately, or fortunately for me, I see entirely too many people entering lesser fights without this ONE crucial defense, that will very likely HALF the normal monk bashing attack.

    If the monk is in any way experienced, they may have entire combos written out for either head OR torso. These can be a pain, but also painfully telegraphed after a fight or two against said monk(s).

    I am in no way trying to downplay anyone's concerns, just hoping to offer insight from what I've seen both fighting AS a monk, WITH a monk, or AGAINST a monk, in hopes to help everyone out.

  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai Member Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nalor said:

    Then no offence then don't complain at being hit for 44% of your damage if you're not willing to say what your audit is, or who ever was hitting you, As artifacts v none artifacts is a big difference as it always has been.

    And as mentioned I'm sure in many different topics class v class changes depending on which class is fighting which class as some do better then others.

    Conner hits me for about 25/30% of my health and I have no artifacts and he has artifacts but my audit is about 50/55% depending on my class.

    It's not that I'm not willing to post my audit, it's that you're assuming I'm whining without taking any measures against this damage.

    For the record, yes, I know, parry. Got it. I'm not here saying "omg they can just straight hit my torso and kill me omg op nerf".

    I'm saying 44% damage is a little on the unicorns high end. That shouldn't be a thing. You can lower that damage and still reliably force my parry to torso.
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



  • ReuxReux Member Posts: 251 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    There's a lot that goes into figuring damage though, especially in pvp. Just blunt resist isn't enough.

    I want a variety of numbers to show how damage needs to be reduced, if it needs to be reduced at all. I don't believe it needs to be adjusted without someone else to start beating on me.
    I mean, you know, an amount.


  • PypoPypo Member Posts: 75 ✭✭
    edited June 2015
    Can't we just replace one of the monk guilds with a blademaster class? Oh wait, devs' can't balance what already got! *laughs* I'm just kidding! *dodges the thrown daggers an puts on his tinfoil hat before he is zapped*

    I only have been honestly experimenting with monk a RL month right now mainly to help didi grind using mind empathy when going to hunt, I honestly can't help with pvp but in pve itself, it has many utilities and mechanics allow you to really diversify how you hunt. I only wish fer one thing really. A kind of psychic back-lash from one's mentality when a monk is hit physically in combat. Maybe a kinda of psychic chakra network when yer hit at one the points the enemy takes some reflected damage they just did? *shrugs*

    My only gripe right now in hunting as a monk is even with dragon stance, fighting at 90 in tiyen and fenguard keep, using numbness. I can't seem to out-pace the damage being done right now. Two hits on any mob in scorpion stance immediately burns up vitality, even with elaborate use of shield tatt/lyre to quickly regenerate. Its just takes practice really I have to learn to utilize its active mitigation mechanic better. Monk overall is a interesting in-depth class but its hard to feel your comfort zone at times. Which feels weird when even sciomancer has a bit better feel when you can set rooms up for rapid regeneration and bolstered resistance. The second I burn through all my mana I know I am screwed, which is all part of the fun!

    I swear, playing a monk inside fenguard keep makes me think WAY too much of the game '5 Nights at Freddy's'
    Post edited by Pypo on
  • LimLim Member Posts: 591 ✭✭✭✭
    @Draiman

    A powerful mechanic is balanced against how easily it is avoided. You weigh the two, and come up with a determination of whether it is manageable. 

    44pct is high, based on what definition? Your feel? Your personal comfort level on how much you would like to have to pay attention in a fight? 

    I take 50pct damage in a full sdk-ucp combo as a monk against  monk . You take 44. Fine. This isn't even a realistic number because you only take this amount of you are not parrying head and torso. We should instead look at pure head and pure torso combos. Those are lower.  But let's use your number. 44pct damage.

    Assume you just blindly and randomly parry either your head or torso. You have a 50-50 chance of negating the damage. On average, this is 22pct damage a round. This does not yet factor in dodging and diversion. That would make the number even lower. 

    If you parry more intelligently (whether manual or otherwise), not only is the number drastically lowered further, you disrupt the monk's momentum. You only get autobashed to death if you consistently make the wrong calls. Keep in mind that if you get scared at any time,  you get a free reset by leaving the room. Yes, it's free. 

    The monk damage tactic extremely niche as a noob check. It is demonstrably manageable. Looking only at the max damage,  without considering how easily it is avoided, is lazy and irresponsible analysis. And should not be the basis for a balance tweak. 

    We all say we want to move towards a game where people don't hit 'k' and afk. Reducing the damage reduces need to pay attention while fighting a monk. It reduces the need to react with appropriate counter measures. It pushes us away from interactive combat where you get punished for not paying attention. 

    There has been plenty of advice to deal with Monks in this thread. Please make good use of it. 
  • AarbrokAarbrok Breaking things...For Science Portland, OregonMember Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    I do have a question aside from the general snarky attitude that last post displayed.

    Why do other limb classes not do as much damage then?
    I am legitimately curious I am not trying to be an arse or anything....again combat noob here.

  • LimLim Member Posts: 591 ✭✭✭✭
    @Aarbrok :  The context to the so called 'snark' is that I consider Draiman one of my better friends in this game. I'm sorry you felt the need to call me out. It doesn't come from a place of condescension, but from a place of disappointment. No worries. I don't have the same high expectations of most other people. 

    Should every limb class get high damage? They could. Then you'll steadily find every limb class being thinly veiled variations of one another. 

    Damage is an escalation mechanic in that it reduces a target's ability to restore.

    Each class needs an escalation mechanic. Some do higher damage the more bruising you have, or dislocate limbs that become full breaks if left uncared, or give up to three mending afflictions plus limb damage every 1.86s, or they just have a consistently high limb damage per second.
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