Sanguis Revamp

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  • RiluoRiluo The DoctorMember Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2015
    @Keroc Cool skill I hope it stays in the final cut :wink:

    I do have one or two questions please.

    How is all these changes going to work with Bloodborn given we lost a lot of the cool stuff from mentis in the last 5+ years and never got the fun stuff like monitor or invoking images/visions in our childer.

    Is mentis getting updated for all vampire subclasses?

    When can we submit changes to hematurgy as we could not the last round or is it getting changed too as a few of us would love to do reports for umbrage and other tiny tweaks.


    Thank you.

    Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."

  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I imagine the monitor thing at least will likely disappear from all vampire iterations eventually, free spying isn't really a POSITIVE thing from most peoples perspective. Especially not without an opt out or way to block it.




    TragerArekaMalokVeovisDristinErzsebet
  • RiluoRiluo The DoctorMember Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭
    I am not so much about the spying as it does not fit with my style of play. I am more about sending them visions and emotes for rp. Plus for making things exciting for my childer when I doing mini house events, such as ominous voices or conveying memories to them through the blood.

    I don't know perhaps I enjoy hearing their reactions to seeing these things happen.
    I know for me those first interactions I had when I was sired stuck with me as they involved a history of who my sire was and little images of them beckoning or reminding me of things.

    In terms of forcing my childer to do stuff ... no thanks I hated it when it was done to me and like I said I only want the fun rp stuff.

    Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."

  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah the vision thing is cool, forcing and monitoring command input is just creepy and invasive, or potentially so.




  • RasharRashar Member Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You can always get illusion stick!
  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Illusions so nerfed atm. I tried to use a mage illusion for RP and it was capped at something dumb like 50 characters- I could seriously not even illusion a single full line.
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I'll still never forget the first time I saw Toz throwing hammers."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I freaked out and thought they had somehow managed to pull me into them."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "So I tumbled away from my team and into theirs."


  • RasharRashar Member Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I rember that being the case, yeah. Illusion arti is subterfuge though. I can get like 3 lines or so with it.
  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai Member Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Malok Prae has been wut over the last decade? Fitness on top of purify was added, lure was added, class was sped up, wraith buffed, ghast buffed, impatience went from sucking to being a key affliction, blocking added, tempation/seduction biles added, end game became easier to get which was also a buff to Prae because now you could go +eq and not have grook hp, banshee went from complete suck to a free shield strip, indifference added, blood spew given 100% slickness aff rate etc etc (not all in that order and there are more I'm sure).

    Whatever nerfs you're talking about I'm 90% were oversight corrections (ie throwing weapons+returning+dwhisper to bypass rebounding) or just the buffs listed above being toned back, which I don't count as a nerf. The only true nerf that I am aware of was paralysis being changed to paresis > paralysis. 

    The class honestly isn't "unplayable" necessarily. You yourself have enough artifacts to steam roll through the paupers of Aetolia because the damage out put is pretty high. 

    That being said, I'm only pissed off about the revamp taking so long because the original post in this thread making it seem like it was almost here. Like it was a done deal, just waiting on a few small things. I personally would have lived a less miserable life had I been told nothing about the revamp.

    Pls pardon typos typing from phone is hard.
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



    Malok
  • SatomiSatomi Member Posts: 230 ✭✭✭
    My experience with Consanguine classes (with my pitiful attempts at PK) is that Praenomen = bashing, Rituos = PK. Short of getting artis to compensate, I can't see myself doing Praenomen PK. (won't buy arties, I am poor)

  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hey just curious! I was thinking about the Praenomen route I used to do.. I really focused on balance knocks/extends. Blood poison/curse/epilepsy/masochism/confusion/seduction/temptation/biles, into passive damage stuff (vomitting etc!) Sort of try to build on low priority affs and start to pile on the more dangerous stuff afterwards. Idk if peoples systems are just 100x better but I used to do somewhat decently. Has anyone been doing anything like that lately? I feel like people I've fought were like, trying to lock me, which felt weird.




  • ZsadistZsadist Member Posts: 815 ✭✭✭✭
    I've tried that Aishia awhile back and it didn't work out so well, but I can try it again and see what happens. I'm not sure how effective it'll be, but its always worth a look at.
    (Oasis): Benedicto says, "There was like 0.5 seconds between "Oh hey, they're in area. That was quick." and "OMFG THEY'RE IN THE AREA STAHP STAHP!""


  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai Member Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Aishia said:
    Hey just curious! I was thinking about the Praenomen route I used to do.. I really focused on balance knocks/extends. Blood poison/curse/epilepsy/masochism/confusion/seduction/temptation/biles, into passive damage stuff (vomitting etc!) Sort of try to build on low priority affs and start to pile on the more dangerous stuff afterwards. Idk if peoples systems are just 100x better but I used to do somewhat decently. Has anyone been doing anything like that lately? I feel like people I've fought were like, trying to lock me, which felt weird.
    You can permanently stall someone out like that pretty easily but you can skip the stall and go straight for the damage. Either way, as Lim has pointed out in much more thorough Posts and reports, you either have the damage or you don't, and you can either tank it or you can't. There is very little counterplay to it and there is no set win condition. If you have the damage you can usually bash them out about 30-45s after you apply all the passives.
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai Member Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Satomi said:
    My experience with Consanguine classes (with my pitiful attempts at PK) is that Praenomen = bashing, Rituos = PK. Short of getting artis to compensate, I can't see myself doing Praenomen PK. (won't buy arties, I am poor)
    I would argue Rituos involves a higher level of artifact investment than Prae.

    And while we're on the subject, I believed Oleis (I think) when he said Prae was not meant to be a bashing only aspect of vampires.
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



  • OleisOleis Producer Emeritus Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 1,393 admin
    edited September 2015
    Draiman said:

    Satomi said:


    My experience with Consanguine classes (with my pitiful attempts at PK) is that Praenomen = bashing, Rituos = PK. Short of getting artis to compensate, I can't see myself doing Praenomen PK. (won't buy arties, I am poor)

    And while we're on the subject, I believed Oleis (I think) when he said Prae was not meant to be a bashing only aspect of vampires.
    The goal is to make all flavors of Praenomen viable in team and individual combat. They may not all be equivalent, but they'll be worth using.
    You say to Slyphe, "You're so freaking smart."
    [---]
    "^," Slyphe agrees with you.
    Draiman
  • NalorNalor UKMember Posts: 774 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2015
    Draiman said:

    You can permanently stall someone out like that pretty easily but you can skip the stall and go straight for the damage. Either way, as Lim has pointed out in much more thorough Posts and reports, you either have the damage or you don't, and you can either tank it or you can't. There is very little counterplay to it and there is no set win condition. If you have the damage you can usually bash them out about 30-45s after you apply all the passives.


    @Draiman Maybe your doing something wrong then as last 3/4 times I been on my vampire (prae) I truelocked them, Granted it was arena but still, didn't damage them out :/

    And I didn't use all the Blood things like people do.
    Mudlet Bashing System for sale. Message if interested
  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai Member Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2015
    @Nalor Kelp. Kelp. Just eat kelp. I've broken this down already and will not explain why you cannot lock someone as Prae again. All the information you need is in their delivery methods and what use to be a basic understanding of how stacking afflictions worked. 

    Just eat kelp.
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hmm what I did was build to enough hinder to stick feed for a few seconds. Then try to get feed a couple times and cause death by 0% blood. I think it's harder to cure when you're messed up with disrupt and stuff. But this was years ago I'm sure people cured worse and I was fighting mostly at mid-tier levels so just speculation. Was more just something I had on my mind.




  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai Member Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2015
    Yeah I understand. But curing orders above mid tier tend to be less static these days. I could probably disrupt lock a few people long enough to pull off a behead, hell after my Aeon success with pre revamp Indorani I'm sure I could cheese some old school amnesia/oculus tricks. But vs experienced fighters they know that if they don't have a kelp aff they can prioritise confusion if they have disrupt and ignore it the rest of the fight (like if they're a bal focused class) and will show that knowledge in their curing, and the same goes for other neat tricks doable. There's things like limb targeted slashes going for a kalmia slash/indiff+anorexia dwhisper on pre-restore/break points but they're mostly just one time tricks that require something more complex than basic curing, but once that's implemented into your curing you never have to worry about it again.

    Edit: and feed is less viable now due to writhe stacking changes. Granted if you can do it once then it puts them on a clock and they only have so long before they lose, but it's one of those things that shouldn't work with good curing.
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Fair enough! Just airing out some brains.




    Draiman
  • SatomiSatomi Member Posts: 230 ✭✭✭
    when I first fought Praenomen, back when Sato was 19 years old, I got wrecked. Then I learned how to turn on the redef for blindness, deafness, and sileris. I never died to a Praenomen after that (unless they were artied out, of course.)

    I'm jaded, of course, but it's why I put Consanguine classes into the category of -Artifact required-.

    Of course, this was pre-Teradrim revamp. With that, if they didn't pre-restore, they were dead after your quad-break was set up. It's how I killed off so many 100+ at Lv. 80 before pre-restore became a more widespread thing.

  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai Member Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2015
    Oleis said:
    My experience with Consanguine classes (with my pitiful attempts at PK) is that Praenomen = bashing, Rituos = PK. Short of getting artis to compensate, I can't see myself doing Praenomen PK. (won't buy arties, I am poor)
    And while we're on the subject, I believed Oleis (I think) when he said Prae was not meant to be a bashing only aspect of vampires.
    The goal is to make all flavors of Praenomen viable in team and individual combat. They may not all be equivalent, but they'll be worth using.
    What is the administration's definition of the word viable? I'm only asking because viable to some people is what Prae is right now. It's able to compete and win simply because the majority of Aetolia probably doesn't have the means coded into their system to deal with it, similar to pre-rework Indorani.
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



  • OleisOleis Producer Emeritus Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 1,393 admin
    Draiman said:
    Oleis said:
    My experience with Consanguine classes (with my pitiful attempts at PK) is that Praenomen = bashing, Rituos = PK. Short of getting artis to compensate, I can't see myself doing Praenomen PK. (won't buy arties, I am poor)
    And while we're on the subject, I believed Oleis (I think) when he said Prae was not meant to be a bashing only aspect of vampires.
    The goal is to make all flavors of Praenomen viable in team and individual combat. They may not all be equivalent, but they'll be worth using.
    What is the administration's definition of the word viable? I'm only asking because viable to some people is what Prae is right now. It's able to compete and win simply because the majority of Aetolia probably doesn't have the means coded into their system to deal with it, similar to pre-rework Indorani.
    The ideal is to have every class be enjoyable to play and within a statistical range of win rates. Emphasis on ideal. 
    You say to Slyphe, "You're so freaking smart."
    [---]
    "^," Slyphe agrees with you.
  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai Member Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sorry for asking so many questions, but when you say statistical range of win rates do you base that off of actual wins vs losses or is that based off of your own (all the administration involved) projections? I'm only asking because I had a pretty decent win rate with pre-rework Indorani but I only won those fights due to the complications of coding in the counter in a time when free curing was abundant but support wasn't. I feel like whatever win rate Indorani had at the time was skewed because of this. I know they eventually got a rework but I'm not 100% sure of the reason. Speaking with liaisons at the time leads me to believe that it was simply because the class design wasn't ideal.
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



  • RiluoRiluo The DoctorMember Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭
    Do we have any updates or titbits of skills, or even concepts to keep us thinking. I know I have been concerned about my BB skills, whilst conversely excited to do some new tactics as a vampire.

    Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."

  • KerocKeroc A small cupboardMember, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 366 admin
    Riluo said:

    Do we have any updates or titbits of skills, or even concepts to keep us thinking. I know I have been concerned about my BB skills, whilst conversely excited to do some new tactics as a vampire.

    Not at this stage, but I'm pretty confident we'll have it ready before the year ends, if not earlier!

    Riluo
  • RazmaelRazmael Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 1,093 admin
    edited November 2015
    I just want to note that we do have it in early testing with the liaisons at the moment, however.
  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai Member Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't mean to be that guy but if we could all just pretend this doesn't exist until it's ready to be brought live I would quit having moments of soul crushing agony when I'm reminded that it's still not here.

    Thanks.
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



    ZsadistRiluoIshin
  • RiluoRiluo The DoctorMember Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2015
    ANNOUNCE NEWS #2488
    Date: 12/22/2015 at 6:45
    From: Keroc
    To : Everyone
    Subj: Praenomen

    Hey guys,

    The long awaited vampire revamp is here and just in time for Christmas!
    A very large number of alterations have been made to the class, so for
    those of you deeply invested in Praenomen combat, I highly recommend
    checking through the AB files in addition to reading the notes below.

    As a part of these changes, we've decided to do away with the Hematurgy
    skilset and merge a number of the more useful abilities into Sanguis.
    You'll note that rituals are now absent from the vampire skillsets. This
    is not a permanent change as rituals will be returning later in a
    different form.

    Finally, as Sanguis has been heavily modified, there will be no
    specifics for it within this post. To learn about the skillset I highly
    recommend reading each AB file (even for pre-existing skills) and
    exploring them on your own. If you feel something isn't working like you
    think it should, you can speak with one of the liaisons (LIAISON LIST
    for current liaisons) for more information on the ability.

    There also includes some extra changes that don't necessarily pertain to
    Praenomen, but have been changed due to either bugs or internal
    restructuring of code.

    So without further do, you can find all non-Sanguis related changes
    below:

    Corpus
    =====================
    - Feed no longer acts as a writhe and is now a stand alone attack.
    - Feed damage type changed from unblockable to cutting.
    - Feed will now work on someone that is either prone or has at least
    one physical affliction.
    - The stun from Frenzy has been removed.
    - Frenzy no longer has a chance to proc Clawing.
    - Frenzy can now miss and can be dodged.
    - Increased Frenzy damage for PvE slightly.
    - Decreased Frenzy balance recovery to 3 seconds for PvP only, down
    from 3.5.
    - Increased the bleeding dealt by Clawing to 150, up from 100.
    - Clawing now gives the rend affliction and grants some bonus
    bleeding if they already have it.
    - Clawing can now miss and can be dodged.
    - Clawing has had its balance recovery increased to 4 seconds, up
    from 2.5.
    - Potence now increases the damage and speed of Clawing.
    - Deadbreath now strips the fangbarrier defence and gives slickness.
    - Deadbreath is now only prevented by paralysis or a damaged throat.
    - Sunder will now break the shield defence 100% of the time.
    - Removed Embrace and Sire from Corpus and placed them into Sanguis.
    - Fitness has been removed.
    - Purify now always cures two afflictions.
    - You can now Feed while in Batform and use Clawing while in Wolfform.

    Mentis
    =====================
    - New Skill: Trill.
    - You no longer need to DWHISPER for double afflictions, simply just
    WHISPER.
    - Bloodsense has been removed.
    - All effusions within Mentis has been removed.
    - You can use Mesmerize with the command MESMERISE for those that
    prefer the different spelling.

    Generic
    =====================
    - Missing blood reserves now equates to a loss in natural healing
    for all players.
    * Missing 2% blood equates to a 1% reduction in natural healing.
    * Natural healing affects all health regeneration from
    elixirs/serums, moss/kidney, and regens.
    - Losing all your blood now results in death for all players,
    including vampires.
    - Haemophilia will now increase blood reserve loss by 10%.
    * This only applies to attacks that drain blood like Feed.
    - Bonus blood reserves from the racial trait has been reduced to 20%,
    down from 50%.
    - Removed inherent resistances, weaknesses, and sip malus from
    vampires.
    - Paths no longer grant any bonuses or maluses other then those
    specified in AB SANGUIS PATH.
    - Praenomen armour-class is now scalemail for all specializations.
    - Typing BLOOD by itself will reveal any defences currently draining
    blood.
    - Fixed berserking not stripping rebounding/shield if it procs while
    off bal/eq.
    - Kneeling now acts as a true prone and sets you as fallen.
    - Fixed Mirage, Darkness, Brilliance all fading early under certain
    circumstances.
    - Added FC, FLUIDCACHE, NLIST, and SEARCHNEWS as safe commands.
    - Fixed voyria timer not being reduced by thin blood.
    - Fangbarrier application delay increased from 5.5 seconds to 7
    seconds.
    - Rend is now classed as a physical affliction.
    - Blessings/favours are now applied as part of defence resistances
    instead of as a seperate instance.
    - Lowered blood regen from sleeping to 8% per tick, down from 10%.

    Forging
    =====================
    - You can now create scythes as part of the LargeBlades skill.

    Battlefury
    =====================
    - Fixed DSW and DSK working while both arms are broken.

    Illumination
    =====================
    - Severance now lets you instantly kill any undead mobile under
    level 80.

    Numerology
    =====================
    - Affliction now gives a random hidden affliction cured by the tree
    tattoo rather than loki.

    Tattoos
    =====================
    - The bell tattoo will now reveal when your Sire is using Monitor on
    you.

    Penned by my hand on Gosday, the 20th of Slyphian, in the year 455 MA.

    This all looks epic. I am going to be relearning a lot.

    Thanks for the hard work :wink:

    Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."

    Iselle
  • RiluoRiluo The DoctorMember Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭
    I just noticed we have no devastate or raze. Also what is going to happen to those of us who invested in bloodborn stuff as frenzy is now the main attack instead of scythe?

    As in:
    weapon runes, leech rune, transformation rune, phial, fastening.
    With the changes these are all now no use :( or is there something in the works for us old fart Bloodborn who invested in the class artifacts.

    Thank you

    Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."

  • ValingarValingar Member Posts: 312 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2015
    Weapon runes are still definitely very useful. Vampire will be slashing a lot alongside attacks like they used to. Frenzy modifiers tend to be something to transition to later in a fight, since they have requirements. Berserking is the way to deal with rebound, with Sunder being increased from 33% -> 100% it should hopefully be enough even if they shield. Rend, frenzy+pulse, deadbreath or feed are stuff you tend to do if they have rebound up.

    For old vampire players, worth re-reading the Sanguis files over. Some of the skills have the same names but different effects. For example, the Blood Poison affliction now slows herb/pipe/salve balances by 0.3s for each of 3 different cure trees that the target has afflictions in, up to 0.9s slowdown. It also uses eq instead of bal, so you can combo it with slash, rend, and so on.

    Sileris time was increased to 7 seconds, so the window to grab Feed or Feast after Deadbreath or your minion removes sileris is somewhat wider. Minion uses its mutation every 4th attack, so it's predictable. Use Thirst on your weapon before a fight, it'll drain blood passively from the target on every weapon hit all the way down to 50%.

    During spar testing, tended to go like this:

    - Insidiae is the heaviest aff route. I like this the most, probably because it was easiest to use. Blood poison + Pillar can grab you a lock, if given time to pile on affs to supplement Poison. You might not even need the Pillar, if you get in a good Poison. You can probably also grind down blood levels with Deadbreath + Feed, while using the slowdown to curing to maintain the physical aff needed for you to Feed.

    - Phreneses seems to be aimed towards supporting a different blood-drain route, with Spew being comboable with slashes. It's a bit trickier. You could do like asthma+noblind+nodeaf in a single attack while Spew is off cooldown (15s). If you do that while they're off on their curing balances, they have a choice on their next eat: eat to cure asthma and avoid being locked on your the next attack, or eat to cure noblind and avoid mesmerize. If you get a mesmerize in on a no sileris target (Deadbreath before the Spew combo or run a sileris strip minion), you can Feast for a massive blood drain (not sure how it scales, but seemed to be almost 50% blood drain.).

    - Rituos seems like a pretty traditional vampire mana drain route. Pile in lots of affs, wear down sip pools, then Seize (basically same as Mindburrow but with better mana damage scaling per aff). Familiar stuff.

    Probably a lot of stuff we didn't think of during the testing, but that's how we used them. The testing was done on a laggy server, so no doubt the numbers will be toned one way or another once they see more use on live.
    Avishai
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