PK Discussion From Rage (Split, Not a Rage Thread)

DristinDristin Member Posts: 585 Immortal
edited January 2015 in Sparring Grounds
This discussion was created from comments split from: MAD 2: MADDEN'S MADDENING.. Intended for constructive discussion concerning some PK topics that came up in that main discussion.
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Post edited by Dristin on
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  • ZsadistZsadist Member Posts: 815 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2015
    Erzsebet said:

    Sigh. Getting pressure on one side to participate in an event I hate (centered exclusively around bashing so far) and now I'm being forced to participate in PK too. Some of it completely random. Sigh.

    Not a dig at Trager/Rashar, they at least have legit reasons for it.

    @Erzsebet, Noone can force you to do anything. If you don't feel like doing something, don't do it.



    Unrelated but somewhat related, I'm getting disappointed, disgruntled, disheartened, disparaged, and probably some other dis words I can't think of right now with the lack of the PK community that Aetolia has. It really has gotten to the point where PK is completely predictable and unfun. Reason I say this is because if you look at the active fighters (not talking about leyline fighters):

    Lifer: Top: Valingar, Dato (sometimes), Benedicto, Trager, Rashar, Conner
    Mid: Amberlea, Jami (sometimes)

    Darkie: Top: Ezalor (sometimes), Lim, Rammus
    Mid: Riluo, Zsadist, Yarel (sometimes), Draiman, Daegon

    99% of the time, if you fight one of these guys, regardless of pairing, you know immediately who is going to win. Now, this list is very, very small, but its the list of people who fight. And that is very disparaging from the point of conflict. I enjoy the PK scene, but I get tired of fighting Trager or Rashar or Valingar or whoever else a billion times over. I would love to fight other people, see more people enter the PK community, but they don't. Why? I'm not too sure and can't really answer that. I get that PK can be very aggressive and intense, sure. We've all been there. I just feel like we're doing something wrong to have gotten to the point where that are literally only 16-20 active fighters throughout a game that has an average of 60-80 people on at any single time.

    Anyway, thats my little disappointing rant for this thread. I'd offer a solution to fix this issue, but I'm not quite sure what the issue is thats stopping people from entering the PK world. Oh well.

    Editted to put in Top/Mid tier fighters (not that it matters much)
    Post edited by Zsadist on
    (Oasis): Benedicto says, "There was like 0.5 seconds between "Oh hey, they're in area. That was quick." and "OMFG THEY'RE IN THE AREA STAHP STAHP!""


  • AsaraiiAsaraii Member Posts: 366 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Another noob perspective-

    I'm huge into PK, I did it elsewhere for years and absolutely love being involved in the conflict system. However, building a system for a new (to me) mud is a lot of work, so before I start doing this, I'd like to get my feet wet and talk to someone about Prae combat. Though it seems Bloodloch is the home of afking and silence, so I have made little progress on that.

    I also try to jump into lessers, but I don't really know how they work yet and nobody can be bothered to spend 5 minutes to tell me where they are and what to do. I know I'm a lowbie and don't have years of artifacts and xp behind me, but I'm not feeling overly compelled to invest in them right now either.
    MalokMoireanVeovis
  • ZsadistZsadist Member Posts: 815 ✭✭✭✭
    @Asaraii, I'll talk to you IG about that, not a problem.

    @Kendri, I understand that PK is a huge time investment, believe me, I get it, having been in the PK scene for nearly 9 years since I first started IRE games. But I think the thing that gets overlooked is that it doesn't have to hinder one aspect of the game or another. Like you gave an example of ditching people in the middle of RP, ok, yes that does happen. But that doesn't mean they can't pick it right back up as soon as you're back. There have literally been countless times in Imperian, where I'm in the middle of RP with some city council member or something, and then BOOM! Raid! We put the RP on "pause", did what we had to do, and then reconvened and continued the RP. Now, RPK is fun and all, but thats a clique all to itself and it happens over time. For me, I see @Trager (<3 Trags) as a decent nemesis because he always kicks my unicorns. I see @Rashar as a nemesis because he's just fun to fight for stupid reasons (plus I get to call him a pissant, so thats always fun. <3 Rashar!) We don't RPK, we just PK and I just see them as rivals/obstacles to overcome..... btw, I will beat you guys one day.... maybe. lol

    As for your worry of being jumped/attacked while you're bashing/questing/exploring, I don't foresee many fighters (if any at all) doing that. We're trying to build the PK community, not destroy it, and to be honest, I think that is what helped destroy the PK community that the game had.

    I'm not sure what all Rashar is doing to try to push forward more lifer fighters, and I'm always glad to offer ideas if he ever needs any, but you also need to seek out those who know your class. For you Kendri, your mentor (for lack of better word) would be Amberlea. (Hi Amber!) Also, maybe its just because I don't have a guild anymore, but being able to fight should help with guild progression too as it shows strength in that guild. Again, no guild, so I'm just blowing smoke here.

    I get where you're coming from Kendri, but at some point, every single one of us is either a) sitting there bored, b) waiting for areas to respawn, c) idling, d) doing something that isn't productive. During those times, one could be reading CHELP/GHELP files on their classes combat style, etc etc. While I agree PK is very time intensive, its also very rewarding when you start winning fights against people or even winning at lessers.
    (Oasis): Benedicto says, "There was like 0.5 seconds between "Oh hey, they're in area. That was quick." and "OMFG THEY'RE IN THE AREA STAHP STAHP!""


  • TeaniTeani Evening Sky SwedenMember Posts: 1,854 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think it's mostly the fact that aside from the top tier people, who fight all the time, there aren't very many around with as much interest in PK. This means that if you get involved with PK it's very likely that you end up fighting against the people that basically smack you down within seconds without you learning much at all.

    Lessers are good for group PK and to make it a smooth train everyone has to play their own role, which sort of makes it boring combat. It's not like building up a strategy for how to handle things on your own, because that takes a lot more knowledge of your personal skills, how to best set things up as a Player and also knowledge on which tactics to play against which class. However, as I said, if you end up against those top people mentioned above and know nothing but constant defeat (and here I'm talking the kind of defeat where you die within seconds and won't be able to do unicorns about it) it's disheartening. Mid tier people need a lot of encouragement. Not just assistance and coding tips, but plenty of pats on the back to keep them upbeat and wanting to give it another try.

    Thankfully I've gotten some serious back-patting lately, so I'm feeling optimistic (probably more than I should, but that's alright!). To help out a little, I'm somewhere in the middle of the pack. I'm not overly good, but I'm trying to improve, making very very slow progress. If anyone wants to give something a go that is not against those high-enders, ask me. I might not always be up for it, but don't stop asking.



  • KendriKendri Member Posts: 90 ✭✭✭
    I think I gave a bit of a wrong impression. I very much enjoy PK and the coding aspect that goes with it, I've taken part to a high degree in other IRE. But I also enjoy a very Roleplay intensive character, so unless I have a reason to fight you, it's not going to happen, a lesser is a reason to fight, some random dude asking for a duel isn't.

    Until @Amberlea showed up, there was pretty much no one to help me figure it out. I was even willing to learn from her icly when she was on the other side, things were that limiting. There are no Help files detailing Lycan combat that I've come across and I suppose that's my own misjudgment for choosing a class without a Guild attached.

    When I compare the environment of learning and encouragement from Imperian to Aetolia, it falls ridiculously short here. We would snap newbies up at the slightest sign of interest, explain how to follow targets, even give them a simple trigger for it, tell them their best damage combo and go to it. (Damage=kills=fun and addiction to pk=leading to an interest in 1v1 style) I don't know if it's because they have three sides, so their fighters are more spread or if it's just the general atmosphere of wanting everyone to participate to the best of their ability. Likely both and more.

    Seeking out help is one thing, but when I feel I have to constantly ask the same question over and over, get offered help but it never comes through. Well, I get discouraged and stop asking, feeling like I'm bothering people and I'm interfering with their fun. I know this isn't just a problem for myself, @Mael has had the same issue. Maybe we need to be less polite? It's hard, we're Canadian.
  • MalokMalok Member Posts: 529 ✭✭✭✭
    Kendri said:

    When I compare the environment of learning and encouragement from Imperian to Aetolia, it falls ridiculously short here. We would snap newbies up at the slightest sign of interest, explain how to follow targets, even give them a simple trigger for it, tell them their best damage combo and go to it. (Damage=kills=fun and addiction to pk=leading to an interest in 1v1 style) I don't know if it's because they have three sides, so their fighters are more spread or if it's just the general atmosphere of wanting everyone to participate to the best of their ability. Likely both and more.

    Because the idea of being in character is dead in Imperian, and has not been killed off on Aetolia just yet. That being said, it's harder to approach new players without either overwhelming them or breaking immersion. Maybe I'm being bitter here for reasons I won't go into.

    To keep on topic, I find this discussion about PK to be rather interesting. The problems that plague PVP in all the IRE games are very similar, and thus can be chalked up to bad design decisions, ultimately. The idea of having to be a trained computer programmer to enjoy killing other players in a fantasy online game is extremely dated and needs to go away. You fix that aspect of the game, and like it or not, way more people would likely participate.
    "Hell hath no hold on a warrior’s mind, see how the snow has made each of us blind. Vibrant colors spray from new dead, staining the earth such a beautiful red."
    IshinMoireanVeovis
  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai Member Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2015
    I don't know about the other side of the game, but for darkies we have a super secret web were we try to be helpful. Just ask over Raiders for an invite. We're less afk there and almost always talking about combat. Or League. Or having deep discussions about the Dragon Ball Universe (there is no fking ssj5 ok). -Sometimes- we even let lifers like Trager in.

    Edit: Wth @Zsadist? I'M MID TIER?! </3
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



    Ishin
  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai Member Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Malok said:


    To keep on topic, I find this discussion about PK to be rather interesting. The problems that plague PVP in all the IRE games are very similar, and thus can be chalked up to bad design decisions, ultimately. The idea of having to be a trained computer programmer to enjoy killing other players in a fantasy online game is extremely dated and needs to go away. You fix that aspect of the game, and like it or not, way more people would likely participate.

    This has been brought up multiple times in this games history and ultimately it's wrong. There are a lot of people in the past and a few now who code their own systems and do well with them (I'm apparently mid tier \o/) and I know jack about coding. Reading a few help files, asking a few questions, etc, will get you a long ways. Most of the time people will flat out give you an example of how to do something if you just ask. I mean, maybe you are asking, but you're just asking the wrong people. I never see anyone use the KLL clan and I never see questions about coding (or even fighting) pop up on raiders.


    If you need help, ask. If you're not getting help from the lifer side, ask a darkie. The game is a lot more fun for us when we have people to fight and aren't getting guilted (jokingly or not @Rashar :P) for having more fighters, so we're likely to help regardless of the side you're on.
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



    IshinMalok
  • TragerTrager Raiding your underwear drawer.Member Posts: 568 ✭✭✭✭✭
    FOR THE RECORD, @Kendri, double hamstring/rend/jugular was all I knew about Werewolf fighting :(. Sorry I couldn't help more!

    Also, I have 0 idea what Draiman is talking about. Like -I- am going to go sit with a bunch of dirty dark-siders in a web, pft.

    DraimanAshmerIshin
  • ZsadistZsadist Member Posts: 815 ✭✭✭✭
    Draiman said:

    @Zsadist? I'M MID TIER?! </3</p>

    Yes you're a mid tier! Stalwart swat/smash does not constitute getting any higher, regardless of how godly it is! Also, you still die easily to the top tier people (if you don't use Stalwart mode). Fight with them and live more or survive longer than 30s and we'll see. But you're not Top Tier worthy yet.

    Also, Draiman is right. If you aren't getting help on your side, ask the other side. Though if you're a darkie and you're not getting help, something is wrong. :/ lol. Alot of us coders/fighters will help you, regardless of what your class is. Most times, we'll sit in the Delos Dojo and let you beat on us til you get your stuff down good. Your welcome @Meltas!
    (Oasis): Benedicto says, "There was like 0.5 seconds between "Oh hey, they're in area. That was quick." and "OMFG THEY'RE IN THE AREA STAHP STAHP!""


    Ishin
  • RasharRashar Member Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2015
    Hey I don't hate on you guys for having numbers, @draiman. Just for bringing them. :) In all seriousness, I try to be chill about it, but sometimes my inner grump comes out. So my bad on that. I've mostly decided to save my sanity lately by just not bothering when you guys have silly odds.

    You're right about the difference in atmosphere, which is the largest part of what we're trying to change. Aside from working with the Eno peeps on the militia stuff to reward as well as add a more IC approach to fighting, that's where the majority of my focus has been, just speaking for myself. Just being helpful and having a good environment for people to be comfortable or learn in.

    I don't pk everybody that looks at @kendri crooked. Just @zsadist. :P Also yeah, sorry I couldn't help out with lycan things more. But I poached Amberlea and afflicted her with lifer so that's cool. Use herrrrr. :)

    Also thank God for coffee, for when you wake up hung over after New Years Eve and spend almost a full minute trying to figure out why you're not delivering the people asking to be delivered. And then realize you're in Syssin. And then spell gross groce. Completely unrelated tangent over, thanks for tuning in.
    Asaraii
  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker VirginiaMember, Guildmaster Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah. I fight a lot. SO WHAT @ASHMER.

    In general clan chat is pretty chill. Sometimes me and Rashar/Trager get into it. Sometimes me and Zsadist. But in general, it's pretty chill. Usually we fight a bit, then someone asks a combat question and everyone chips in, and it's left alone after that.

    I spent some time chatting with @Asaraii earlier about Prae stuff, and I also chatted some with @Melantha and @Tenshyo. Ftr, Ten, hitting me for 34% of my HP is so uncool man. Was like 2200 dmg in one combo, THROUGH PUTRE. T_T

    I had personally been thinking about making a general combat clan, but I'm not really sure how well that would work out. @Moirean already has one, but I'm not sure if it's for our side or for everyone or what.
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    learn.
    -Benjamin Franklin
    Asaraii
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ah crap I better start griefing you @Zsadist I didn't even make your list.




    AshmerZsadist
  • RasharRashar Member Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Alternatively:
    Buy str3
    Buy knuckles3
    punch things to death.

    :)
    AshmerAsaraiiIshinRiluo
  • LimLim Member Posts: 591 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2015
    Lim said:

    Don't rely on gimmicks and take the easy way out. You'll be missing out if you do.

    @Rashar‌
    Lim said:

    Don't rely on gimmicks and take the easy way out. You'll be missing out if you do.

    @Rashar‌
    Lim said:

    Don't rely on gimmicks and take the easy way out. You'll be missing out if you do.

    @Rashar‌
    Lim said:

    Don't rely on gimmicks and take the easy way out. You'll be missing out if you do.

    @Rashar‌

    Also, learn to parry, you newbs.
    IshinDraiman
  • RasharRashar Member Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For clarity, I do not own level 3 knuckles or any punching class. :P

    But sometimes I want to!

  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    hey I can beat like 90% of the people on the list! also I rage at.. hangovers.




  • ZsadistZsadist Member Posts: 815 ✭✭✭✭
    Aishia said:

    ah crap I better start griefing you @Zsadist I didn't even make your list.

    Do iiiiiit!!! I didn't put you on the list because the only time I ever see you fight is at lessers.... or when you're in haven with the hubby Valingar and you kill him because he pissed you off or something about RPK. Other than that, I don't really see you fight much.
    (Oasis): Benedicto says, "There was like 0.5 seconds between "Oh hey, they're in area. That was quick." and "OMFG THEY'RE IN THE AREA STAHP STAHP!""


    Ashmer
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Come into the HG more!




  • AsaraiiAsaraii Member Posts: 366 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Seriously, know this is the rage thread, but thanks so much for all the help! I'm so pumped to jump into conflict (and die).

    To keep on track, I freaking hate having a horse farm in the winter.
    AshmerIshin
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I re-railed some posts on the combat questions thread if anyone feels like going on more I guess or has actual questions or whatev.




  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember, Newbie Helper, Guildmaster Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is a nice conversation and maybe someone could split it off yo the pk section.

    Re learning there is the pk clan (called uhh...pk) for darkies. We are still compiling combat guides (and people can make a decent chunk of credits from helping create them). Spines also has a pk progression system which relies a lot on practice and analysis as these are key to improving. Chelp combat ranks explains more.

    As for pk itself I have so little time to spend perfecting code given how busy I am elsewhere in the game and rl. I know pk theory but fine tuning stuff for 1v1 is time expensive and not very compelling since 1v1 doesn't really have any reason or objective behind it anymore nor is xp a motivator (I used to gank people cuz omg bashing sucks). I also don't really enjoy the heavy emphasis on afflictions and states over tactical choices so I don't find 1v1 as fun as I used to. I tend to only do group stuff or objective based combat like holy wars.
    The Divine voice of Razmael echoes in your head, "God of imps."
    Eugenides says to you, "Imp, Are you sure you were not born a Troll?"
    The Divine voice of Arion echoes in your head, "Every time I try to punish you for being so flippant, I find Myself laughing instead."
    Hugo has expressed his esteem of you for the following reason: Being a badass leader.
    image
  • DristinDristin Member Posts: 585 Immortal
    This discussion was created from comments split from: MAD 2: MADDEN'S MADDENING..
    image
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I GRIEFED YOU ENOUGH ALREADY @ZSADIST




  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker VirginiaMember, Guildmaster Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Lim has something beautiful there.
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    learn.
    -Benjamin Franklin
  • SerriceSerrice the Black Fox Member Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Lim After playing aff classes for all of 2 years, I think I'm going to go pick up some artis and go artibash someone to death. Just to indulge myself a bit.
     
    AshmerIshinTrager
  • ReuxReux Member Posts: 251 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2015
    Zsadist said:

    but I'm not quite sure what the issue is thats stopping people from entering the PK world. Oh well.

    Personally? An investment in time I haven't quite been willing to make yet has stalled me from entering the PK scene.

    I love IRE PK for its complexity. I also hate it for that complexity when I have to turn back to my systems and start coding.

    I still have to write:
    Personal tracking for ~30% of the afflict list, including all but web/impale for the writhe afflictions.
    Diag affliction tracking at all.
    Auto'd Pre-restore of some kind.
    Attacks that can be reasonably accessed.
    Stacking queued commands with the separator rather than firing them individually.
    Holding an herb or two in hand at all times, or at least a toggle for it.
    Pipe tracking. Either Lusternia or Imperian tells you how many smokes you have left of the pipe you're smoking, when you smoke it.
    Accessible attacks, through macro or queued 'attack path'.
    Opponent's afflictions tracking.
    Spam reduction.

    I still have to figure out:
    How to fight all the classes. Is vinelash affected by rebounding? How does one get a rip without cheesing a prone shriek on not-the-thigh? How frequently can you Quicken? Is Morph or Quicken tracked in ability balance?
    What can all the classes do back to me. THANK YOU AB RANDOM FULL WORKING IF YOU DON'T HAVE THAT CLASS.
    Is two pipes per herb needed anymore since the aeon and the Tarot offense was changed?
    Is holding herbs important, once more because of the aeon and Tarot changes?
    What do all these new afflictions actually do? When can and can't you cure them?
    How does bruising work? Hell, how do Carnifex do at all? Do they still have amputate?
    If illusions isn't the Syssin boat, how does void/sprinkle work? How does Hypnosis work? Are they still immune to particular poisons?

    And the worst part?

    What's going to stop Atra from stomping me into the ground again after I get something set up and running? (In theory, I got endgame, and powerful was nerfed. Woo.)
    How many more versions of the system am I going to have to expand, from scratch, until I have all the pieces needed to start competing? (Maybe none. Who knows.)

    So. There's lots to be done before I PK, and I'll handle each piece as I get to it.

    To address these problems is difficult, because I need time and confidence that there'll be more rewards than the Lifer side putting me down and into a corner like when the holywar system was released.

    Setting this aside, because it's mostly for 1 vs 1, I dislike ylem group pvp lifer side because I hate the idle chat in Dion/Fire. I'd rather listen to the IC banter in CT/GT than OOC banter anywhere. Why? I'm terrible for OOC chat.
    I mean, you know, an amount.


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