A perfectly civilized topic about Holywars

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  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander Portland
    ...and then the side that's losing sits in their city for 7 years behind guards?
    FurtumRiluoInfin
  • Eh, I am not one of the Moirean witch hunters. I agree with her a good, good majority of the time she says things, I have defended her to certain others, and I have said to people dozens of times that she's awesome and super helpful 99% of the time. So if that's what it seems like, I apologize for that.

    Just saying, that 1%. Man, she really knows how to dig it.

    @ishin. In the words of one Plato the Vampire Slayer:

    Approacheth me, kindred!
    IshinTrager
  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai
    edited May 2014
    I don't know what happened with who or what or why this or that or why the earth is round and the moon only out at night or even how magnets work, but what I do know is that using the Order as a personal weapon, however annoying to some it might be, makes sense for Iosyne people. Moi has that power, and she's using it to set things how she wants. Whether that's her actual RP reasoning or there is some daddy issues with Slyphe or she's being framed and it was really Sigfried back and he hacked her account and did all of this to make her look bad or what, ICly, makes sense. I don't see how this doesn't make sense unless maybe people just don't know these things about Iosyne or maybe this seemingly simple concept is really super deep and I just don't get it.

    Edit: I got ninja'd by 2 posts minimum, so this is in reply to all of the "totally not related to Iosyne" things. Doesn't have to be, imo, for the order to be involved, unless Ios shows up and is like "I don't approve".
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



    EleanorMoireanOmeiRiluoFurtumIosyneXenia
  • EleanorEleanor FOR SCIENCE
    I've been wondering if someone would point that gem out. No matter how you slice it, the war was not incongruous with the parties involved.

    Riluo
  • KaleighKaleigh The Inn
    "War, terrible war.."

    Anyone?
    Ishin
  • TragerTrager Raiding your underwear drawer.
    So, I definitely got some sleep finally, when others starting waking up and such within the Order. The sad, even silly, truth is man - I was beeeeeent last night. It was a blast when we had even(ish) numbers, and it was way back and forth, hell we were too busy cracking jokes and BSing most of the time to even pay attention as much as we should have been. Then it got to me and three others. Then me and two others. Then there was me and one other. Then I was trying to incite something, and it was just me. When all the shrine defiling froze up for a bit, I tried keeping tabs on everyone and seeing what they were doing. Seemed a good chunk were idling in their cities, or what have you, some where doing LEYLINES (/stare). But the moment I stepped onto a shrine, or in the vicinity, I got creamed almighty fast, only to have them go back to doing nothing. That was my bitter moment for the evening, I'll admit. I got (Heaven forbid, RAGEY) that it got pushed to the back so dismissively, yet I as an order member still couldn't manage to do anything. In all intents and purposes, everyone was pretty well over the war as it stood, and it seemed to just have been put on pause in favor of.. leylines, or some such.

    Well, shit, not sure where that was going, but the endstate remains the same. It started off as a lot of fun, had its ups and downs, and I srsly (SRSLY guys) hope I didn't offend too many people last night on here with my posts. That said, I am all about removing the ability to declare war from Order Heads. >_>
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's go-... Oh.


  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander Portland
    I was running leylines because my reserves were at 0. I use those for PK (shell, disperse). I was bashing because I was cracking all of your shrines. It's a really weird logical leap to assume that I was trying to grief you.
  • edited May 2014
    Sure, @draiman and @eleanor. I said that several times.

    "She discards the subtler tools of manipulation and politics, finding them unsatisfying to sate Her need for violence and carnage."

    Pretty much matches.

    Also pretty much insinuates they'd call it for what it is and not hide it behind flimsy political or personal reasons. :)

    And yeah, while it makes sense that she would use that tool based on her character and the Goddess she serves.. again, as Trager said. It really just shouldn't -be- her tool. It's got too big of an impact on too many players' time and lives (rl and IC) to be not well thought out and legitimately justified.

    Which goes back to maybe the problem being just how time consuming the holy war system is, but I guess that's another topic. And I'd rather have what we have now than nothing.
    Trager
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander Portland
    I guess we're forum RPing, then. So here you go:

    1. Moi has daddy-issues with Slyphe. Huge ones:
    - He tossed her out and is the whole reason she is darkie.
    - Slyphe has kidnapped and brainwashed (in Moi's head, at least) Moirean's son. Maelo? Your high priest? That's Moi's son through Bene.
    - Slyphe has threatened Moi's daughter Ryla very directly and vividly.
    - Bene and Moi had an entanglement, where talk of Slyphe featured very prominently - he held back from coming to join her because of duty to Slyphe, and then he killed her fetal child and has avoided her since. In Moi's head, Slyphe obviously had something to do with it.
    - She wants to see his OHs undercut, as she used to be one. She wants to prove she's stronger than her replacements.

    2. Slyphians have a history of causing trouble with shadow. From erecting shrines in Spinesreach to graffiting, they put themselves out there, in Slyphe's name. You openly tie your God's name to your actions, the response will come back to your god/order.

    3. Slyphe encourages it, as well. He's...made waves...with darkies, which I think is cool. Conflict is fun. When Moi spoke to him, he was basically like "Come at me, bro." I thought that was a bit of an invitation to escalate things.

    4. Darkies have been wanting a fight. Iosyne's order often asks "Hey, when do we get to Holy War again?" - as a leader in the Order, my job is to keep the order/congregation happy. RP events don't really get the type of reception that they do in other orders - it's an order based heavily around conflict and domination, so there needs to be PK every now and then. Is that sustainable? That's its own debate, and maybe it's not - Imperian had a cult based around a similar concept and it ended up failing because it is such a contentious and demanding outlook.

    5. Lessers have become a bit meh and boring, often going to huge numbers. An order war is smaller numbers and a much different type of conflict, with a different reason for fighting. Change. Eh. Eh.

    6. If Moi has daddy-issues with Slyphe, she has mommy-issues with Iosyne. Iosyne told Moi that she's done with her fight with Omei and wants to move on. She and Moi had a talk about conquest and stuff and Moi promised to deliver her the world and design her a nice throne to rule it from. She swore to get Iosyne's army out there fighting and so on and - even though part of her was not entirely comfortable with the idea of wanton battle just for battle's sake - Iosyne seemed to approve of it, so Moi decided that was a path to take. Moi wants Iosyne to approve of her, and if she can make Iosyne happy AND hurt Slyphe, she will jump at that.

    7. The current conflict mechanics don't really give much flexibility, both for stirring up trouble and for striking at a divine. Starting a random fight between org x and org y does not guarantee that it will stay between those parties - past precedent says it won't. Look at basically every fight the Carnifex have tried to pick. A holy war, however, is restricted mechanically and through admin punishment, so smaller fights are guaranteed.

    8. Spoiler, I guess, but Moi is suicidial, more unstable than usual and is becoming pretty jaded about being in charge. She's been doing a range of things, for a while now, to find what limits she can push as a leader.

    As mentioned, Iosyne's order is all about attaining power and using that power to shape the world into what you want it to be. I think misuse of power is very much IC and a RP choice - to use history as an example, we have Hitler (sorry to Godwin, but I think this reference is rather apt). He's like, duh, an evil person. That's like the Daskaloses and Ezalors - they are unabashedly committing genocide and that makes them evil in their own ways. But there are also leaders like Stalin, La Fayette, Henry the 8th, Ghengis Khan, the list goes on, which are a real mixed bag - some of the stuff they did was bad or wrong or they abused power for their own goals, but are they evil? Their legacies are debatable, and it's certain that the people who were their opposition probably saw them as cruel or evil or senseless. Personally, Moi views herself as a Truman, killing many to save more, that sort of thing. Obviously, that's not who she is to most everyone else, but she's a deluded, flawed character, and she's very much convinced that she's working for good things. To others, I'm sure she comes across like one of the Borgias - corrupt and cruel and very self-centered but also prone to random "nice" things like patroning the arts or whatever. Evil and bad and whatnot are not black and white and I'd be disappointed if single RP events could be cited as the source for something like a holy war. That's so flat and boring and clearly contrived.

    So, in my head and from my view, there is a ton of justification and stuff for conflict. I think, yes, if I were to do this again, I would go extensively out of my way to make sure that everyone felt more involved in the conflict and I'd toss in more external buildup for the groups involved. However, this is me, the player saying this, because I think the gameplay aspect of things can benefit from that sort of buildup and inclusion - IC, why the heck would Moi feel the need to make Slyphians feel better about war? I understand that, as players, though, you want it to feel fair and justified, so if I did this again, I'd make that extra effort to really spin out a story others were involved in.

    That being said, I think sometimes the game is hurt because of things like forums and OOC communications. If there was no sort of communication like that, all of this would have been explored IC - either lifers would further demonize Moi (and that's one very valid reaction) or people would have poked and prodded and tried to figure out what's going on. That's not going to happen now.

  • edited May 2014
    I'm not sure all that was really necessary, but eh.

    A lot is just out of context, and we are playing within the confines of mechanics and game rules.

    Sure, it is within Moirean's right to abuse ( or use, it is all perspective ) her power and not offer an explanation. Except you did offer an explanation, and it was a silly one. :P

    If I recall, when that Hitler guy got crazy, a lot of other guys decided to get together and put a stop to it. That can't happen here. Orders can't ally for war, cities getting involved is a nightmare. Obviously, that stuff is just not applicable. What makes sense ICly is simply not something we can do a lot of the time.

    Why else is Emperor Ezalor -still- tolerating Daskalos and the Beacon? I mean, you guys have the power to really mess things up, and we're like a big shining thorn in the side.

    I dunno. We're repeating, and I feel strongly enough about it that I have a hard time not presenting my arguments here.
  • Moirean said:

    3. Slyphe encourages it, as well. He's...made waves...with darkies...

    image
    image

    i am rapture coder
    MoireanTragerRiluoBenedictoSlyphe
  • BenedictoBenedicto Tentacles Errywhere!
    I've been named and shamed!
    image
    Piper
  • Sad I missed the war... again :/ I have the worst timing with taking breaks

    Sorta hate that orderwars seem to always come down to this. Same complaints as last time, same explanations. Still voting for the divine to take control of when orderwars happen. Still voting for a separate avenue of conflict to exist so everyone can stop champing at their bits and have fun in a way that all sides consent to.
    image
    Rawr
    TragerFurtum
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight School
    Amberlea said:

    Sad I missed the war... again :/ I have the worst timing with taking breaks

    Sorta hate that orderwars seem to always come down to this. Same complaints as last time, same explanations. Still voting for the divine to take control of when orderwars happen. Still voting for a separate avenue of conflict to exist so everyone can stop champing at their bits and have fun in a way that all sides consent to.

    Soon.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker Virginia
    Haven said:

    Amberlea said:

    Sad I missed the war... again :/ I have the worst timing with taking breaks

    Sorta hate that orderwars seem to always come down to this. Same complaints as last time, same explanations. Still voting for the divine to take control of when orderwars happen. Still voting for a separate avenue of conflict to exist so everyone can stop champing at their bits and have fun in a way that all sides consent to.

    Soon(TM).
    FTFY.
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    learn.
    -Benjamin Franklin
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotion
    edited May 2014
    I'll probably cite the real reason that people won't mention for whatever reason: It's annoying to fight Iosyne's Order when it overshadows the population of every other Shadow order and Spirit order by a significant margin. Bloodloch might as well have declared war on Slyphe's Order and it wouldn't have really made a difference. Sadly, nothing can really be done about that nor is it the fault of Iosyne's Order.

    Personally though, I've tinkered with the idea on Seir to leave his current Order just so I can defile Iosyne shrines without risk to any other Orders. It'd be as flimsy as the reasoning of bringing in an Order into a personal dispute (which this declaration seems to have stemmed from but that is my personal opinion), which would be acceptable given the mentality of some folks in this thread.

    Didn't Aetolia once have this exact same issue when Dhaivol's Order pretty much dominated and trounced everyone else and nothing could really be done about it?

    Edit: I also support removing the ability to declare holy war from order heads. Let it be an event that the Divines instigate instead of someone using it as a personal vendetta or looking for any sort of excuse to declare a holy war. It seems like that has been the case lately. For the record, I'd also like to add that I don't really buy into the Moirean witch hunt either. My opinion is that if the roleplay behind the Order either directly or indirectly supports griefing, then the roleplay is to blame, not entirely the player who partakes in it.
  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai
    My mind is completely blown atm. Here is conflict, and apparently the only reason it wasn't fun for anyone but Trager was because there was a "flimsy" reason. The reason wasn't flimsy at all, the RP was valid and legit. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong or bad. Removing the ability to declare from Order Heads further cripples the ability the community has to start any large scale conflict without direct involvement from a God/Admin. Please do not do that.

    Name a single war or large scale event that had heavy PK involved that did not have it's own rage thread before the official rage thread even began. There is an issue here, I completely agree. I don't think Moirean being able to declare war was it, and forgive me for sounding like a jerk, but I'm willing to bet if you all look past all of this BS in this thread, it has to do with the fact that someone lost, and losing is never fun. Every war/event with PK has a loser, and they are always the ones doing the whining. No, it's not always Enorian or Duiran or lighters. I played during a time where it was BL doing all of the bitching because Daskalos smited for 2k, Clio was OP, Aiden smited for 1999, Talinon would grief you on his alt if he couldn't kill you on that character, and BL's great leaders were Zephy and Strung. There was plenty of whining from us then, and even if there was valid complaints in our whining (sup bugged shine) you never heard us complaining as loudly when we won. The same holds true now I believe.

    I am sorry the dark side has more players than the light side. Removing mechanics or changing them is not going to fix that.
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



    RiluoIngramTozIshinFaerahEleanorMoirean
  • @Draiman has a bit of a point here, regardless of my feelings on this war or not. No matter what, someone's always a bit miffed about conflict when it doesn't go its way. One really good example is when something like 75%+ of bloodloch's major players quit playing for a few months because they were about to lose a war - because they did something sketchy as hell to pull themselves out of a losing situation and the admin smacked them for it.

    That said, I do kind of feel like the rp of Iosyne's order is a kind of rough thing for the game, since it ends up bringing the bulk of one side's pk ability into one order. But...it is what it is.

    Faerah
  • edited May 2014
    You're 100% wrong in that A) Anybody is well and truly upset. Or maybe Trager was for a bit, like he said. But I'm pretty sure he's over it? I didn't see anyone, during my awake time or in talking after, that really got upset about anything. Even when we were getting decimated and dying over and over, everyone was cracking jokes. I think it's hard to convey in text, but this really does seem to be a fairly civil debate about things. Not everyone agrees, and that's alright. Is what it is, in that regard.

    And B) That this stems from losing. As often as people who lose make excuses.. it is often a habit of the winners to disregard anything the loser says as anything but 'We lost and we're whining'.

    Nobody who had a clue had any doubts as to the outcome of that war, bro. We were determined to put up a fight, get some fun out of it, and prove that we weren't quite as lacking in combative capabilities as we were the last time. I think we did that, and after Moi failed to capitalize on the hours and hours of 1-2 Order members to just finish it, I did it for her rather than push into the realm where people -were- getting upset. End result was the same, and wasn't ever really in question.
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotion
    edited May 2014
    I don't really care either way as I have characters on both sides. I just find the whole concept flawed when the entire population of one side is singled out into one Order. The same thing happened with Dhaivol's Order and, if I'm correct, holy wars went inactive because of this.

    Easiest solution is make it so that Holy Wars are at the discretion of the Divine. They're rare enough so that they remain fresh no matter who wins or loses, Orders can maintain their roleplay discretion, we retain conflict without having to lose it altogether due to holy wars going inactive, and Orders can actually build shrines again without worrying that the order with the staggering zerg is going to declare on them when they suspect they have 10+ shrines to do so again. We really lose nothing out of this situation.

    Edit: And I'm one of the biggest proponents of conflict in this game. I was vehemently against disabling the last war system and I am against completely disabling this one as well, but I can pretty much guarantee you it will ultimately be the outcome of holy wars if the complaints aren't addressed.
  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker Virginia
    We don't have a war system to be disabled.

    I think conflict mechanics need to be in the hands of we the players. Just like how holy wars are now, and just like how war mechanics were then. Conflict in this game should be driven by us, not by the Gods.

    Not saying that some shouldn't be because Slyphe is like YEAH WELL I SOAKED YOUR SPIDERS, IOSYNE, WUT NAO, but I strongly believe that the primary motivation for most meaningful conflict should come from US.

    Just like back in the day when I kidnapped Auresae's high priestess and held her in my haven. Dask found out 'cause I derped, and was like BRO HAND IT OVER. Of course I was like nah mang, and so we scuffled on the city level because it was the biggest rock he had to throw at us. Which is cool.

    Now it'd be like...well shit. Let me holy war you, Ishin. I'm like nah mang. So now he has nothing, except to like...try and grief me into giving in to whatever his demands might be. We have no war system. We have...lessers. And occasional group pvp outside of that. And the rare holy war.
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    learn.
    -Benjamin Franklin
    XeniaDourif
  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai
    The easiest solution isn't always the best. This would be a band aid fix to a much larger problem, and that is player population on each side. The solution to that problem I'm not even touching cause I have nfi how to fix it. I'll let those guys in charge figure that one out.
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



  • So torn, man.

    I agree with all of your points, @ishin, for the most part. It makes sense that it would be in the hands of a mortal, and it's sadly the purely OOC knowledge that holy wars are a fucking -pain- that makes people say put it in the hands of the Gods. We assume they will have a better handle on what constitutes a worthy reason, when in fact they're humans like us. (Except @slyphe. I hear he's a Kelki IRL.)

    And it's not even the dying. Not really.

    If a holy war was 3 or 4 days of open PK, just go.. More kills = winning or some such.. Shit, ok. I can deal with that. It's all the nonsense of raising shrines or feeling like you are obligated to -defend- them even when it is clear and obvious you're going to get decimated over, and over, and over again (i.e. when Trager +1 was on) or the week or two of raising them after that is just meh. 15-20 minutes per shrine while sitting there twiddling your thumbs is fun for exactly nobody.

    People don't feel bad hiding if it's -themselves- that are at risk. When you put something like shrines into it, it makes people who aren't into fighting feel the need to go out and get themselves PK'd repeatedly just to 'try'. Then it's just the PKers having conflict. Boom. You could even have noncoms doing RP and such. Or whatever, I don't know. Just musings, at this point.

    Daskalos
  • Just my two cents, but it seems as if there is this unspoken rule that one cannot simply be the best. Isn't that truly natural and inherent to any form of conflict?
  • ...

    Huh? :P
  • I was kinda sad it only lasted like 12 hours or however long it took for Rashar to surrender the war. I had like four hours of sleep the night before it, so I -had- to go to bed and get a good night sleep for work but I wouldn't have minded having a bit more time to war. I kinda miss war at times. I was only part of the last war that Duiran had but when I was in Bloodloch, wars were fun. Webs, skyping! Ah, the good old days.
    imageimage
    RiluoIshin
  • RiluoRiluo The Doctor
    edited May 2014
    I go to work for 12 hours and this conversation is still going...

    image

    Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."

  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker Virginia
    I think that having something that your character value's being at risk is exactly what makes conflict worthwhile, both for your character and for yourself. But I could be among the few in feeling this way.

    Also, any time there's conflict, there will be a winner, and a loser. It's not because the winners are assholes, and it's not because the losers suck ass. It's just that way because it's the nature of things. That's -conflict-. If we always fought and then we agreed to draw at the end, then...we'd all be equal and that's just not kosher.
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    learn.
    -Benjamin Franklin
    Furtum
  • Rashar said:

    ...

    Huh? :P

    If org x has all the pk'ers and rapes all the faces and is the best, why can't that just be said and it's over until org x is replaced by org y?
  • TozToz
    edited May 2014
    As a temporary fix, do like pack challenges used to be.

    ORDER WAR .

    Shrine:
    - What we have now. Tactics, objective control, who cares it's apparently boring.

    Essence:
    - Because you freaks like to bash. 1 bash = 1 prayer or whatever.

    Death:
    - Blood makes the grass grow. Brawl that lasts 3 RL days (ideal for weekend declaring). Gain points by killing the enemy Order. Lose points accumulated by standing in a city (each person generates points, so if I get 3 killing blows, I'm worth 3 points. Afk in a city for 3 hours, now I'm worth 2 points). Means you either qq and aren't around, or you're out and actively participating.

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of fucking awfulness Toz
    ---------------------------
    Didi's voice resonates across the land, "Yay tox."
    ---------------------------

    Ictinus11/01/2021

    Block Toz
    ---------------------------

    limToday at 10:38 PM


    you disgust me
    ---------------------------
    (Web): Bryn says, "Toz is why we can't have nice things."

    TragerSessizlikZsadist
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