Class dispensing

Arbre

This discussion was created from comments split from: Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE.

Haven

I really wish class wasn't still in the hands of the players.

Calipso

Haven said:

I really wish class wasn't still in the hands of the players.

Ah yes, we had a looong discussion of this on my clan. I personally also would like that. It is just odd how some classes, such as 'non-tethered/neutral', still require one to seek out the guild that owns the class, which each guild being pretty strongly tied to a side. Just think there should be an easier option. Shouldnt be this hard to play a class you want.

Serrice

Haven said:

I really wish class wasn't still in the hands of the players.

Disagree.

Haven

Serrice said:

Haven said:

I really wish class wasn't still in the hands of the players.

Disagree.

Why? If you don't mind me asking.

Riluo

I have always been of the mind if you are undead, you can claim x class, living can get x class. If you are a vampire you can claim x class (bloodborn). If you have had said class before or are a guild enemy then the npc in the corresponding city flat out refuses you, requiring you to gain it from the guild. Those who gain it from a npc can not apprentice and or enter guildhalls (unless the guild uses the priv to allow it).

Mind you this is just an idea, nothing more, nothing less. So skim over it if you disagree

Veovis

Haven said:

I really wish class wasn't still in the hands of the players.

Me too. Autoclass was the best thing to happen to Achaea's class system. I really like the idea that other players can't take my 868 credit investment from me because they don't like me or my roleplay or some other reason. Sure I get 90% of those lessons back, but I still lose something significant if I should get outguilded before I get class.

Haven

Veovis said:

Haven said:

I really wish class wasn't still in the hands of the players.

Me too. Autoclass was the best thing to happen to Achaea's class system. I really like the idea that other players can't take my 868 credit investment from me because they don't like me or my roleplay or some other reason. Sure I get 90% of those lessons back, but I still lose something significant if I should get outguilded before I get class.

haha, could you imagine what it'd be like to play World of Warcraft or Dragon Age or Neverwinter Nights or any class based game if they required that before you can play or keep that class you had to first appeal to another currently playing player?

I understand guilds need some kind of leverage but I don't believe the class stranglehold is it.

Veovis

@Haven

I don't think guilds need leverage at all. Guilds provide socialization, roleplay, and access to others who share the class. That's more than enough incentive to join a guild. Any guild that needs to be able to use class as a weapon or threat needs to be deleted.

That said, I do think that the way things have been done with the Bloodborn is a decent way of giving the guild some skill-based leverage. There are a few skills that can only be used with guild membership.

Haven

Veovis said:

I don't think guilds need leverage at all. Guilds provide socialization, roleplay, and access to others who share the class. That's more than enough incentive to join a guild. Any guild that needs to be able to use class as a weapon or threat needs to be deleted.

That said, I do think that the way things have been done with the Bloodborn is a decent way of giving the guild some skill-based leverage. There are a few skills that can only be used with guild membership.

Eh, I dunno. I feel guilds need a method of dealing with betrayal or something that wasn't just lolPKonce. Perhaps if one of the GRanks was made an honors line or something.

Knight-Marshall, Sir Saybre Windrayn, The Silver Phoenix

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

General:

He is 252 years old.

He was born on the 5th of Haernos, year 161 of the Midnight Age.

He is ranked 11th in Aetolia.

Fame:

He is a graduate of the Academy of Enorian.

He has repelled the massive eld swarm that dwells within the Iernian Fracture.

He has been recognized as a Legendary Game Hunter for one season.

He has attained his Knighthood within the Templar Order.

Borscin Alavon

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

General:

He is 319 years old.

He was born on the 17th of Khepary, year 94 of the Midnight Age.

He has forfeited his position in the rankings.

Fame:

He has crushed the competition and won a weekly experience challenge.

He fought in the battle against Grumagh, Warlord of the Devourer.

He once served as champion of a Divine Order.

He has fallen from grace and lost his Knighthood within the Templar Order. <- Fameline to override the other, regardless of guild status.

I think that'd be far more productive and healthier for an RP environment than what the class strangehold provides. If need be, also provide a mechanic for guild enemyship. Something out in the world that's potentially important so that there is an incentive to perhaps...not go around pissing off all organizations. But that might be best to wait for with the new Faction system that's to come as it could potentially link to that.

Calipso

Veovis said:

I don't think guilds need leverage at all. Guilds provide socialization, roleplay, and access to others who share the class. That's more than enough incentive to join a guild. Any guild that needs to be able to use class as a weapon or threat needs to be deleted.

That said, I do think that the way things have been done with the Bloodborn is a decent way of giving the guild some skill-based leverage. There are a few skills that can only be used with guild membership.

That is the problem with several guilds in Aetolia though. They simply lack identity and/or purpose simply because the players within have only focused on "We have the skills". One of the few guilds that moved beyond skills is for example the Indorani, having evolved to a more 'evil' roleplay and paths to power. If you simply look at the guild list or topguilds, you can easily pick out which guilds simply exist as a monument to the class itself, rather than as a unique conceptual organization all to themselves.

Areka

@Haven - I've asked for that and was told it was a no-go. 

Class skills are important to guilds - some more than others, yes, but they are part of guild identity. I am hoping that factions with lycanthropes will be a good run to see how they can further both sever class constraints from guilds as well as provide opportunities for more hooks FOR guilds. You can say roleplay is enough, but without any mechanical bonuses or purpose, it isn't, they might as well be clans. Having the mechanical/admin support makes a bigger difference than you think. 

Haven

Areka said:

@Haven - I've asked for that and was told it was a no-go. 

Class skills are important to guilds - some more than others, yes, but they are part of guild identity. I am hoping that factions with lycanthropes will be a good run to see how they can further both sever class constraints from guilds as well as provide opportunities for more hooks FOR guilds. You can say roleplay is enough, but without any mechanical bonuses or purpose, it isn't, they might as well be clans. Having the mechanical/admin support makes a bigger difference than you think. 

I do not deny the power and leverage it grants. I do not deny its importance or the difference it makes. I just don't believe that is the policy/framework they should have and maintain. They should be afforded something else in its stead. Guilds need to evolve. Now more than ever especially since the advent of multi-class.

Edit: The power of class dispensing is not something that should be handled solely by the playerbase if at all. It's bad for the game and I imagine it's bad for business too.

I mean, sure, if guilds -want- to center around being x class then by all means. That's your choice but you should not hold the power to deny someone a class. That's something that should be in the game/admin's hands. Fine, deny me from your community. Dish out the RP consequences you want. But if I want to play X class, I should be able to provided I meet the game's minimum requirements. Make NPCs give out class as an alternative at the very least but don't leave it up to appeasing A-Z players.

Areka

It also shouldn't be baseless and willynilly "I want all of the collector cards because I am entitled and said so even if it is completely contrary to my roleplay and behaviour". That pushes class further into the metagame rather than really integrating skills and training and archetypes into the roleplay and substance of the game's world. 

Haven

Areka said:

It also shouldn't be baseless and willynilly "I want all of the collector cards because I am entitled and said so even if it is completely contrary to my roleplay and behaviour". That pushes class further into the metagame rather than really integrating skills and training and archetypes into the roleplay and substance of the game's world. 

That is up for the admin to decide, not the players. They have the tools to enforce what they want and rightfully so. You might not like my RP (or lack thereof) but so long as I am working within the confines of the game and what the admin want as their minimum standard, who are you (the player) to deny me? RP your disdain. Throw consequences at me if you so desire so that I can reply in kind if I want but leave my investment alone.

Again, I recognize guilds need a leverage of some sort but I don't think class dispensing is the way to go. We should think of something else like the honors line thing for guilds to have instead.

Arbre

Haven said:

Again, I recognize guilds need a leverage of some sort but I don't think class dispensing is the way to go. We should think of something else like the honors line thing for guilds to have instead.

What about the Syssin?

Haven

Arbre said:

Haven said:

Again, I recognize guilds need a leverage of some sort but I don't think class dispensing is the way to go. We should think of something else like the honors line thing for guilds to have instead.

What about the Syssin?

You could easily give all guilds the honors line. Ask them to give a recognition noun/verb/adjective whatever.

He has attained First Blood status within the Syssin Syndicate. <--- To recognize your first kill if that's what they're going for. -shrug-

He has been denied First Blood status within the Syssin Syndicate.

He has attained Ascension within the Teradrim.

He has been disgraced and lost Ascension within the Teradrim.

etc etc

If that's not what you mean, please clarify.

Arbre

I mean half of them want to (are supposed to want to) be all sneaky hidden no known guild affiliation.

Areka

@ferrik  yes crocodear.

Haven

Arbre said:

I mean half of them want to (are supposed to want to) be all sneaky hidden no known guild affiliation.

The guild could then have an ability to toggle whether the honors line is public or private. 

Edit: Private being only amongst former and current members of the guild.  Or maybe just current and the person who has been branded in disgrace. Apprenticeship wouldn't count.

Arbre

Areka said:

And we'll just have to disagree there. Mechanics ARE roleplay*, and while it isn't ideal and there are other ways for the game to be built, further divorcing class and skills from the roleplay of the organizations they derive from because of entitlement isn't the way to go. 

Edit: What I mean by this is you can't have it both ways. PK is RP, and class is RP too. 

Haven said:

It bothers me that if I'm in a dead guild or for whatever reason cannot attain a class that the game advertises I'm able to have, I'm sore out of luck...not because that's not how the admin want it to be but because of another player or group of players.

I know of several people who have tried to get class in a guild but can't because the players who can give them it aren't around to do so or won't for whatever reason. Some just don't or can't play when the other is playing. Some have RP reasons. Some want to be paid a sum (hefty or otherwise) for it. Whatever. Right now, you're boned unless you find a way to metagame it. How is this good policy?

Areka said:

Ah, I'm talking about out of guild class, not in guild class. I think guild-based quests and some time investments could easily address that for inner-guild issues. 

Edit: Though I would probably push for some adjustment for people who repeatedly join guilds/side hop, that if they've done it via quests once, they can't do it again, like Certimene. 

Edit Edit: And I would disagree that you're boned. Unless people are being ridiculous, the reasons why you would be denied a class is because there is conflict between you and the org that class represents/builds/is part of, be it in loyalties, transgressions against that org, or something else. 

Multiclass is nice but not essential, it's a good money maker but I stand by that you're not -entitled- to having any class you want when you aren't part of that org. 

Haven said:

Areka said:

Ah, I'm talking about out of guild class, not in guild class. I think guild-based quests and some time investments could easily address that for inner-guild issues. 

Edit: Though I would probably push for some adjustment for people who repeatedly join guilds/side hop, that if they've done it via quests once, they can't do it again, like Certimene. 

Edit Edit: And I would disagree that you're boned. Unless people are being ridiculous, the reasons why you would be denied a class is because there is conflict between you and the org that class represents/builds/is part of, be it in loyalties, transgressions against that org, or something else. 

Multiclass is nice but not essential, it's a good money maker but I stand by that you're not -entitled- to having any class you want when you aren't part of that org. 

We'll have to disagree then as I believe out of guild class and in-guild class should be treated the same. If the game says I can have it, why do the players get to say I can't?

Areka said:

Because this is a roleplay world and actions have consequences. The game says you can have credits and gold but that doesn't mean you get them freely - you have to work for them, there's part of an exchange. Same for citizenship or org membership or artifacts or anything else. 

Haven said:

Areka said:

Because this is a roleplay world and actions have consequences. The game says you can have credits and gold but that doesn't mean you get them freely - you have to work for them, there's part of an exchange. Same for citizenship or org membership or artifacts or anything else. 

The consequences and roleplay would still persist if guild's didn't have the power of class dispensing though... But again. Maybe you're right in that we won't agree and will have to agree to disagree. I'm willing to continue in the other thread Arbre moved us to if you are.

Moved the posts the only way I knew how.

Areka

The consequences of roleplay do not persist (at least in a meaningful way since PK is limited) if someone who has been an utter fart to an organization and disrespected their training and loyalties can just walk up to an NPC and go 'skills now' and be handed them over without breaking a sweat or having to prove themselves, barter a deal, or make a case. It makes class meaningless outside of finances and further weakens the game's roleplay investment and the meaning of skills there. 

Xavin

See, here's the thing. If you're an enemy of a guild that dispenses X class, why should you expect anyone in that guild would give you the class? For example, if Xavin were an enemy of, say, the Daru, I wouldn't expect him to be able to learn the Daru skillset. How would that make sense, that someone who hasn't attoned for their crimes against an organization should be able to learn that organization's ways? Here the mechanics are supporting the roleplay.

Haven

Areka said:

The consequences of roleplay do not persist (at least in a meaningful way since PK is limited) if someone who has been an utter fart to an organization and disrespected their training and loyalties can just walk up to an NPC and go 'skills now' and be handed them over without breaking a sweat or having to prove themselves, barter a deal, or make a case. It makes class meaningless outside of finances and further weakens the game's roleplay investment and the meaning of skills there. 

They actually still do persist even in that scenario. The person is being denied kinship/whatever from the guild still and whatever RP arc the guild decides to run with thereafter.

In any case, I imagine (or hope) if the Admin were to implement NPCs, there would be a challenge or quest or limiter of some sort associated with it. If they just popped in NPCs that just gave out class willy nilly then I'd hope that they'd then add enemyship from guilds to affect the process. Not an outright denial but would trigger a quest which a scaling difficulty.

[spoiler]

For instance, let's say Borscin wanted Templar again and went to the NPC. NPC would say, "Sorry bub but Pentarch Areka warned me about you. You'll need to prove your case." And the person would then embark on a quest. The severity, I'd argue should be something set by the enemystatus. So you could do something like this: enemy Borscin minor (sets the weakest quest chain or something. Moderate would be a different quest that's be a bit more challenging. And Major would be the hardest of all.)

[/spoiler]

Areka

He isn't being denied kinship because he hasn't sought kinship - hasn't sought to joint he guild and earn his stripes, etc. 

Arbre

I see some guilds Bloodloching that if that were the case.

Haven

Areka said:

He isn't being denied kinship because he hasn't sought kinship - hasn't sought to joint he guild and earn his stripes, etc. 

If we take that scenario where he doesn't approach the guild first and instead goes straight for the NPC despite knowing he's caused trouble or what have you with the guild, I would argue that the consequences still persist. Because as soon as the guild finds out he has the skills they covet so dearly, they can still react to it if they so choose. Much like if someone currently gets apprenticed without proper authorization from the guild.

The only difference is that you'd be unable to essentially say, "Haha, you can't play this game's class because I don't want you to." You can still RP the consequences. You can still have an impact on their decisions.

Haven

Arbre said:

I see some guilds Bloodloching that if that were the case.

What do you mean by this exactly?

Edit: Oh, you mean blanket enemyship? So what? It just makes the quest harder... I'd only complain if the enemyship outright denied class cause it'd defeat the purpose of an NPC alternative.

Piper

Okay! SO. Speaking as an ex-achaean for over a decade over here.. I literally saw the implimentation of Houses and open-classes as a tragedy that kinda ruined the feeling of the game for me. Suddenly, actions had no consequences and we'd have people doing the Achaean version of YOLO. I understand that it's difficult and sometimes you feel nudged into a box but I don't think free lack-of-restriction is the answer at all.

Perhaps we should grow more easy with our tethering since the idea of being banned from a guild's RP is not any punishment for people that do not have any interest in RP. A balance would be nice but I'm not AT ALL okay with a free-for-all of anyone can just buy whatever they want. Earn it. That's RP, too.

Arbre

Haven said:

Arbre said:

I see some guilds Bloodloching that if that were the case.

What do you mean by this exactly?

Sorry.  I mean enemying everyone, that way no one can get their class.

Carivah

Haven said:

Areka said:

He isn't being denied kinship because he hasn't sought kinship - hasn't sought to joint he guild and earn his stripes, etc. 

If we take that scenario where he doesn't approach the guild first and instead goes straight for the NPC despite knowing he's caused trouble or what have you with the guild, I would argue that the consequences still persist. Because as soon as the guild finds out he has the skills they covet so dearly, they can still react to it if they so choose. Much like if someone currently gets apprenticed without proper authorization from the guild.

The only difference is that you'd be unable to essentially say, "Haha, you can't play this game's class because I don't want you to." You can still RP the consequences. You can still have an impact on their decisions.

But there's more to being a Templar than just knowing how to swing a sword, more to being a Daru than just knowing how to throw a punch. If someone truly was an enemy of the guild and so, more than likely, an enemy of the class's philosophy, why would even an NPC be willing to teach them Illumination or Deathlore or Hematurgy or any other such RP-loaded skill? The quest should be so difficult in that instance that I don't see how working with an NPC over the guild leadership would be meaningfully different.