Retardation Vibe

Haven

I was going to ask in the short combat questions thread but I'm not so sure it's a short question with a short/easy answer. How are we supposed to fight in retardation vibe? I'm a bit stumped as to what I should be doing. I refuse to believe the solution is to run and not fight in it because it seems to me, based on a glance over their skillsets and what I've been told, that the vibe is one of the core mechanic to the class as is.

Any tips and hints to help me out would be appreciated. (Also, this is not the complain and whine about the vibe thread. I'm looking for actual help and tips for what could be done.) I originally thought that it shouldn't be much different than normal combat since retardation's effect (as far as I know anyway) is simply adding a 1.5 second delay to all commands for both users. And yet...it appears to be so much more than that as I get steamrolled while within the vibe.

Solaria

Typically, the thing to do now is to start throwing out frostspikes with venoms as soon as possible with retard up. And, if you do it right, you can keep them going the entire time. I know this does not perhaps help much, but it's something to watch out for. Luckily, retardation is being addressed by liaisons in some fashion (no clue on the specifics), so hopefully it'll be easier to deal with.

Valdus

I can go ahead and talk about our plans for retardation this coming round, since I'm not sure they're fully described via report decisions.

Retardation will be changing to a cooldown-based ability, where once the effect is embedded, it will only last for 30 seconds, with another 30 before the vibration can be placed again. While active it will not eat other vibrations, however each vibration has a chance on each instance to be 'muted', essentially cutting out a third of all of the vibration ticks.

To give them new alternatives outside of retardation (given this major nerf), they are receiving a new crystal (octahedron) which may be directed on an independent balance to 'strike tones' from single vibrations at a target, doing a minor magical effect (including single afflictions, knockdowns, specific defense strips). Striking the town, however, will put that vibration on a short cooldown, muting its effect if the vibration would fire before the crystal can be used again. There is a different tone effect for each vibration, so it will require some exploration. The octahedron ceases to spin in retardation vibrations, so this balance is completely outside of that effect.

Neithan

That octahedron thing sounds incredibly cool, @Valdus!

Ezalor

The biggest problem I've found in retardation is paralysis, the double leg break from plague, and a weird (oversight?) mechanic where if you order shadeling freeze target right after it attacks it'll double attack, which strips frost + gives you shivering all at once. Between all of that and the disrupt from shivering (which sometimes sets in before you have time to cure it due to the delay) it's very hard to find an opportunity to do anything.

The new delayed paralysis along with that oversight possibly being patched will make retardation much easier to deal with, even not counting the pending liaison changes to retardation itself.

Daskalos

All of the above. There's really not a whole lot you can do in retardation at present... it's not about coding or ability, it's about turtling until you get ahead. Hopefully this change will fix that! 

Saybre

Be like @Missari and load up your two hander with Retri afflictions and Zeal!

Surprisingly I've survived Xiuh in Retard with doing my limb offense several times (not recently, I haven't PvPed in a bit), mostly because I'd just keep his arms broken, and that let me get ahead on him. Isto would drop Retardation and holos then run..that was just mean.

Xavin

It should. At this point, retardation is going to be more applicable as a mid-to-late-fight tool used to push someone you already have pressure on.

Xiuhcoatl

@Saybre It's not that hard to survive me in retardation. In reality Magi offense isn't that good, even in retardation. People just don't know how to handle it very well and get noob checked out of the fight. Also there's a horrific bug where you can land magic_impaired on a magi and it'll throw them off balance forever in retardation due to spamming+stonespike being bugged to unicorns for forever and not being fixed. I've not yet seen someone attack me faster than once every 5 seconds with no vibes hitting them. You need to take a lot of overhead and evaluate things based on times that your commands will arrive rather than the time situation of when you've sent them. Then you just need a few short estimates on any offense you'll have and slight adjustments to things like parrying and refilling pipes. Just means a lot of work on your system, roughly the same as dealing with Shamans. 

@Xavin from what I'm reading, it doesn't look like a mid or late game fight tool. You drop it, noob check someone, and if they pass you reset the fight since you just wasted your time. Dropping a vibe costs you equilibrium, 2 seconds as neutral roughly. So you'd need to justify that cost as something other than a waste of time for it to be a mid or late game tool. As it does not grant your offense anything and in fact looks like it's going to negate part of your offense the purpose of the change is to attempt to nerf it into non-existance while still providing it because the rest of the magi changes don't make up for the nerf. Granted, I've been permanently traumatized since the carnifex revamp and have lost all faith in class changes producing something beneficial to the class or the game. So the class is going to be nerfed into the ground and we'll need to wait 3 years before it's usable. 

Also @Haven, you need a lot of work to fight in retardation. You're not accounting for hitting rebound and screwing yourself. For some reason, you're also double hitting afflictions you've already given me. So you'll spam paralysis when I have paralysis already and get nowhere. In order to deal with rebounding, you need to either strip it or go around it. Once thing to note is that my sipping doesn't account for retardation so I'm extremely vulnerable to being bursted down. As a luminary demons+shine+sap will most likely absolve me in a few turns if your curing is up to par. A very important thing to remember is that magi vibes are terrible. You can ignore most of them, and the other ones won't affect you if you cure. Only plague does something and the chances of it doing something useful are very small for me. 

@Daskalos, there is a lot you can do in retardation. You just need to understand what it's doing and what the magi class you're fighting against can do. I'll grant you that fighting an Ascendril in retardation is a lot harder than fighting a sciomancer if they're both of equal skill. However, at the end of the day there's not much besides paralysis spamming the magi can do. Every class can spam paralysis a lot harder and faster WHILE delivering other afflictions and still have their passives going. 

Xavin

Yeah, the class is going to be far from useless. The major problem with the classes as they currently are is that the existence of the retardation vibe as it currently is creates an artifical bottleneck. Either you can code around retardation or you're going to get destroyed by it, there's not really any in between here. So the point is to lower the class' reliance on the problematic skill by implementing some very interesting abilities that can't really be used outside of retardation. Tone balance is something I cooked up and the admin ran with it. I think most people will be very happy with the new abilities and some of the peripheral changes that are coming along this round.

Aishia

There is a pretty strong argument that the simple fact that retardation totally cripples anyone inexperienced(newbies) and makes entering combat too arduous with inexperience as a mechanic. It's easy to sit on your high horse and laugh at people who can't handle things, because it seems so easy to you. Does not change the fact that they're clumsy and or over-complicating mechanics.

Moirean

How is retardation so impossible for newbies and stuff? Maybe I'm just used to how it used to be, but I don't see how it's so terrible - with both it and aeon these days you can just spam attacks and be fine. I forgot to set my pipes the other day and fought Xiuh without curing aeon for like a minute or two like a dummy and didn't die. These skills aren't the insane, deadly blocks they used to be.

Xiuhcoatl

@Aishia what? Tough class related mechanics are a staple of aetolia combat. Indorani and Cabalist combat is very easily this exact thing. You need to understand how to do hidden checks or you're going to be doing weird stuff/dead very quickly. Shamans are brutal with this, since they're loaded with damage, stuns, and debuffs to nail someone who doesn't cure against their class correctly. In terms of sheer line by line implementation, shamans are actually the hardest class to code against to be competitive. Bloodborn have a very similar thing you have to do or you're going to be up a creak without a paddle. You can argue that this shouldn't be a thing, but don't get it tiffany twisted. Tough brutal things that punish the inexperience was what Aetolian combat was/still is. You give me any class and I'll show you a way to murder someone who doesn't know the class with it in under 40 seconds. 

Daskalos

I maintain that it is impossible to play an affliction tracking class in retardation due to the time delay mechanic. You either end up having to preload and hit with afflictions they already have, or you end up having an insane curing balance because they cure faster than you afflict due to having to wait for balance to see what they actually cured. All in all, it's a gimmicky mechanic and, when combined with vibes, is entirely too strong. I'm very thankful it's getting changed. Double leg breaks + 1 shatter = instawin in retardation due to delayed curing and brainsmash. Add in shadeling doing incredifast shivering (though Eza says that's a bug) and you're left with a salve balance nightmare.

I, personally, have refused to fight in it, going so far as necrosis'ing out of FFA's and the sect arena rather than fight someone that relies on the skill. I'm extremely happy it's being changed.

Xiuhcoatl

@Daskalos Contrary to your belief affliction classes receive a massive boost in power in retardation, because the enemy curing has to handle what you're giving it. Specifically templars that have an instant kill based off of herb afflictions and can triple venom affliction in a round. That plus their pestilence passive which works as a focus blocker for sticking anorexia. In retardation you'd just slash until they have crippled and the other afflictions required for your instant with a paralysis+magic_impaired thrown in every now and then so they don't get very far into their offense. The problem you're experiencing is the fact you're waiting for balance times. That is retardation fighting 101, stop doing that and you'll kill everything. Templars are really broken ATM, you shouldn't be losing to anyone very less a magi. 

Here's the basic theory behind that, because it's important you learn it to understand how retardation works. Your various comments leading up to this shows me you lack an understanding of it. So here's a simulation, I could write a program to walk you through it if you want, but I'll start with a word draft first.

You see the enemy is unafflicted, so you go for your first attack paralysis and asthma. Now, against a magi, they don't have fitness so you don't have to worry about it. you hit with the two afflictions, and they've got a choice. They can eat for paralysis and tree, or they can eat for asthma and renew. That's their two choices. Either way, bamb tree or renew is gone and they've cured paralysis. now it's .1.5 seconds after your attack and they've cured both of them. They means their herb balance is down. So you attack this time for weariness and magic_impaired/clumsiness. Now they have two more afflictions on them. Bamb, they use another balance. So they don't have tree or renew right now. But wait, because of the delay, the first consume was 1.5 seconds after your first attack. Your attack is roughly 2.0 so .5 seconds after their consume they were afflicted. So 1.4 seconds after your attack, they can cure the other two afflictions. But wait, this is slowed down by retardation. So they're not going to cure weariness and clumsiness/magic_impaired before your next attack([1.5+1.9+1.5]<4). If they used renew, they'll attempt to tree. They'll do this curing for the kelp tree. This is because that was the only visible afflictions to them at the time, 1.5 seconds ago. So they'll cure one kelp affliction and be stuck with asthma and paralysis. Seeing them having both asthma and paralysis with one more kelp affliction, you'd hit with anorexia and slickness. This is your vlock. Mirroring from templar would take care of the focus. However, to be safe your next move you'll hit with stupidity and the other kelp affliction they cured. Bamb, in like 5 rounds, you've vlocked someone. Throw in a raze slash here and there when rebound would be coming up, tracking it like a hawk with a good system hand written system. That's how you fight correctly in retardation. Magi can't do that. Magi are reduced to flinging a venom at you every few seconds because their offense is horrible. BTW stonespike and frostpike are slower than chucking daggers right now too.

Also @rebounding. If you wrote your system well enough to know when the enemy's rebound is coming up, you'll razeslash when it's coming up in under 2 seconds. That way when you factor in natural lag, you'll razeslash their rebounding aura. and deliver paralysis. At worse you raze their speed and still deliver paralysis. Either way you've deliver hindering for the round. I have no idea where your thought process is that enemy curing slowing down nerfs your affliction rate. Your affliction rate is the same as it was before if you wrote your offense well. If you did not write your system, then I could understand your frustration. As you don't know what to do to it to make it accurately handle retardation.

If you have any other class you'd like the tactic to fighting in retardation with, I'll be here all day. There really is zero reasons why magi should be winning in retardation in the first place other than that massive noob check on retardation. 

Edit: messed up the play by play, but it's still fairly correct. You hammer off their secondary curing and then go in hard on herb afflictions. Then you switch to instantly lock them when paralysis and asthma are on them. Eventually you'll get it. 

Ashmer

Haven, to answer your question, I think it's a coding phenomenon. I haven't coded for it yet, 'cause I'm waiting to see what we do with retardation, but you pretty much have to pre-load your offense by 1.3-1.5 seconds, or eat a delay in your offense. Now, the reverse proves true for the Sciomancer, who has an equally tricky time tracking stuff, but what usually wins out in the end are passives, and spamming too many actions.

 

Like, as a Bloodborn, I'm toying with the idea of pre-envenoming my scythe, and limiting my dwhisper tree somewhat so that even if they cure something right before I send the next one down the line, it'll be bad news for them. Confusion, epilepsy, stupidity, paralysis, et cetera, are all good things.

There's the issue with passives, but for you, as a Luminary, I'm pretty sure spiritwrack will eat Xiuhcoatl's lunch and make him like it. You just have to, like he said, code for it, and test it, play with it, and work it out until you have it down.

 

As far as the wildfire discussion that always crops up in close proximity to Retardation, I've got a few things.

1) Retardation, as far as "tough things to code against," I think is pretty damn tough. Part of my experience with it is also Xiuhcoatl being a wily bastard who's put a million hours into building, tweaking, and refining his technique. Yes, people say it's trolly and abusive, but the dude really really knows what he's doing.

 

2) I think this is one of those things you have to be really really careful with. Outside of retardation, as far as I can tell, Sciomancer offense is laughable at best. They just plain don't afflict enough, and with statpack changes, damage routes across the board got the nerf hammer straight to the nuts. I'm not saying Retardation doesn't need to be changed, but I think it should be intelligently tested. I almost daily (at least on those days that I go on my fun little killing sprees) have people complain about aspects of the Bloodborn offense that are easily coded against. For example, people dying to Annihilate when their health is 80% or above means that your sipping priorities are way way off. (Again, this is just my experience, and I'm not disputing the other changes already in place in the Liaison Reports) It's really easy to call something OP when you have no idea how to deal with it, when there is, in fact, a way to deal with it. I've done it before (ahem, Shamans) and I don't believe it will stop, I just have a niggling concern that it's going to find its way into the way skills are actually coded, and some of the complexity of IRE combat will be lost - which is why it's so G.D. fun in the first place. You will never find this level of complexity, involvement, or strategy in any game with graphics, anywhere.

 

Those are just my two cents on the matter. I'm gonna head for my bunker now.

Xiuhcoatl

@Ashmer the real tactic to use in current retardation with Bloodborn would be use to your scythe as a targetted attack to hit my limbs. Do this with random attacks and of course paralysis anorexia indifference. You'll eventually get me to pre-restore and put myself off salve balance for 4.3 seconds. In that time you'll have anorexia and indifference stuck on me and paralysis because it's the first slash. Go into slickness and then finish with a truelock. The slowdown to you will be minimal from vibes. The only problem is that they'll stop you from beheading me. So go for damage/feed/annihilate.

I should also say I'm including the delay between curing because of retardation. This can be coded around. Most people don't compensate for it, so I opted to add it in. At most the delay for me is 1.5, but usually the retardation delay for me is .1-.4 seconds on cures. Attack delay is next to non-existant. 

Ashmer

That's actually a stupidly good idea. I'll see you in the Sect Arena.

Daskalos

@Xiuhcoatl - I wrote my entire offense, and actually wrote a special mode JUST for fighting in retardation, that launches attacks so that they get delivered the moment I return balance. The problem is that 1) by launching so early, it advances in affliction chains because you haven't had time to cure yet and 2) I often end up rebounding or doing other things because of the delay.

You defend current retardation, which is getting removed, yet anytime I've fought you in retardation, the -moment- I get the upper hand you spam shield and reflect self until plague, which you claim doesn't hit often, double breaks my legs. At that point, you go for a shatter and a behead, and somehow, your shadeling also seemsto double freeze around the same time (the aforementioned bug).

Either way, the point is moot - retardation is getting a nerf, as it needed, and mages are getting other ways to kill that don't rely on gimmicks.

BOLD PREDICTION: Next up, we'll see Xiuhcoatl using Indorani and a whole lot of hangedman.

Xiuhcoatl

@Daskalos that's a strawman argument. I'm not defending retardation. I'm simply pointing out where you're wrong. I could see why you would assume that this would be the defense of it, but I can promise you. I'm just correctly what you're saying wrong. Similarly with the shatter and brand nerf, it's no longer feasible to use either of them in retardation. What I do is outside retardation I will use shatter to brainsmash you incredibly fast because even outside of retardation you attack at a sluggish pace. So I use this to shatter your limbs and go for the brainsmash. Sadly, you torc of telepathy now when prone to negate all my hard shatter work. Similarly you also mind paralyze once I start a brand so those never get off on you either. Even when you have double broken arms and double broken legs and vlocked you can still mind paralyze me. Hence, stacking afflictions on you in retardation due to your system's inability to offset the curing correctly and your offense lacking potency in it is the best method.

Also current retardation isn't a gimmick. I don't understand why you dislike it so much. You have an artifact you bought that you can spam to win in it and you do indeed spam it frequently. Just not efficiently. Torc of telepathy allows you to deliver paralysis faster than what people can cure it. It also allows you to do this while prone and paralyzed. The stupidity change is going to do absolutely nothing at all, so this tactic will still work in retardation after the change to it.  

Also, I was the only person to propose a nerf to hangedman this round to prevent spamming. Just going to you know put that out there. 

Daskalos

You suggested a nerf to hangedman while also suggesting that it advance your offense. Heck, even the rejection message said:

Decision:
2014/01/09 21:08:04
Hinders with no prerequisite should not advance your offense

You also say that I attack at a 'sluggish pace' outside of combat. I don't understand that, at all, considering I attack off balance. You also spent 2 rounds trying to get an artifact nerfed because it's the only thing that stopped you. You also realize that shatter's timings weren't changed with the combat slowdown, therefore undoing the previous nerf? Shatter is now more powerful than ever.

I would respect you if you didn't use gimmicks to win - for once in your life, run a class the way it was designed, not finding some obscure method to get wins. There is zero skill in turtling until a double limb break happens. It's like old care+healing+judge. It's luck, not skill.  It's like you eating slices + herbs at the same time to throw off herb balances. It's a gimmick that no one had thought of before (actually, Eza had, but decided it was too griefy). Didn't mean it was a -good- tactic or even a valid one. It was a gimmick. Your fighting style is gimmicky, and I'm not saying it's not effective. There have been others (being forced to drink absinthe, anyone?) before and there will be others afterwards, but it doesn't mean I have to respect your style of fighting, because I don't. While I don't like fighting Ashmer or Ezalor because current BB are ugh, they're not using gimmicks. And sure, it could be that the Mage class required you to be gimmicky, but you've been gimmicky in every class you've played, a discussion that has been hashed and rehashed so many times that I don't want to do it again. I'm done with this thread. Retardation is getting beat with the nerf stick, so let's see how the changes play out.

Xiuhcoatl

That's again a strawman argument. The nerf I suggested was to stop spamming. The proposed solutions stopped spamming. Also the hinder doesn't advance the offense of the indorani given the writhe time is the same as the fling time. What it does, is balance the cooldown of 10-20+ seconds with an effect that doesn't make it worthless. It would still nerf hangedman into the ground. So it actually doesn't advance the offense. If anything it advances the defense of the Indorani or destroys it. However, even if the rejection reason was incorrect, it doesn't change the fact that it was still rejected. Neither of those invalidates my point. I was the only person to propose a nerf to hangedman to stop spamming.

Also I say sluggish pace because shatter takes 3 seconds to execute channeled. Your attack speed is around 2.2-2.5 on blades. So you're wasting roughly .8-.5 seconds not attacking. Hence the term I noticed sluggish. Granted, you don't always attack this sluggish. However, whenever I see you start dragging your feet the mace comes out. One of the good parts of manual combat is you get to punish people in a blink of the eye. Like when you take maces or decide to attack my mana. Those will send you on a one trip ticket to pain. Granted, your torc of telepathy allows you to mind paralyze me out of the brainsmash even though you have resto breaks on all your limbs. 

Toz

Shatter does not take 3 seconds to execute channeled. Dismember takes (took prior to changes?) 2.75 and shatter is faster than dismember is.

EDIT: Actually? I might be wrong. Testing with hammer has it going at 3s now, but I remember forging a much faster mace for shatter, and people preferring to use it over dismember because of speed. Can't class switch for proficiency because, derp, shattered myself.

Xiuhcoatl

Shatter and dismember take the same amount of time, which is 3 seconds. I could give you proof, but most likely moirean is going to chime in. Faster speed doesn't affect the channel time, just the time you recover balance. Ideally your lag+balance time=the time to shatter. So you can have your system queue up the next shatter AFTER you regain balance and it'll be almost prompt perfect shatter+next one. The difference between shatter and dismember is that dismember can go beyond the original level of shatter which is just a restoration break. In this way dismember is better. The problem is, torc of telepathy still stops this and any end goal build up from it, brainsmash/behead. Also it doesn't build soul very quickly so it doesn't advance your momentum offense and is not affected by momentum. 

Toz

Yeah, apparently something got tweaked. I used to dismember at a static 2.75 with the balance and strike ending up on the same line, and I'm somehow faster now, though the actual hit goes through at 3s. Regardless, my mistake - was almost positive shatter was faster than dismember.

Draiman

Sorry to add fuel to the possible flame war that's about to start, but you can't force people to punch someone with deliverance up, force people to mistform as a crowd control in team fights, force people to eat those stupid berries and drink alcohol, spam lightning to win an event, and tons of other gimmicky and janky crap and then try to call someone else out on their "gimmicks'". Your shit stinks too dude.

Ashmer

Edit: I take it back, just contributing to the flame war happening here.

 

Any other good ideas for fighting someone in retardation, Xiuh?

Damonicus

Might as well close this thread now, we see where it is going.

Ashmer

Damonicus said:

Might as well close this thread now, we see where it is going.

I don't know that the original poster's question got answered, though. I think as long as we stop fanning the fires of this - and maybe selectively remove a few flame- or troll- only posts, we can hopefully muster our manners and continue in gentlemanly form.

 

This is honestly a damn good question, and I believe it hasn't really been answered simply due to the trolling that always happens in such close proximity to it. The purpose of this thread isn't to discuss whether or not current Retardation should stay the way it is, or to question Xiuhcoatl's ability as a fighter, or to make fun of Daskalos. Valdus had already closed that tangent before this got started - the question is HOW do you fight in current Retardation.

 

If your answer is something like "you don't," or you're going to post specifically about one of the other posters, please don't post here. I'm damn interested in the answer myself, 'cause now my timer's ticking out for pwning Xiuhcoatl under current Retardation.

 

Ready? Go.

Xavin

They way you fight in retardation currently is basically what has been described. You have to compensate for the delay by sending commands before you get balanced, which means you have to have a good idea as to what your opponent is going to do, no matter what side of the vibe you're on.

In theory, classes that afflict multiple times per round should be able to tear apart a mage in retardation simply due to the relatively slow nature of mage's affliction offense, a few outlying abilities/bugs not withstanding. This will largely still be relevant after the coming crystalism changes, but will be less of a bottleneck. Retardation is honestly one of those abilities where you're likely better off manualing your offense.

Xiuhcoatl

@Ashmer depends on your class. Mixing limb damage in with your regular offense is what you should do anyway as a BB. It just turns into a ROFLSTOMP in retardation. 

I would suggest using the math.random function in mudlet and the math.randomseed function too. math.random gives you a random number based on the time it's been called and the randomseed it has. By giving a unique randomseed or at least different enough random seed, you'll get a decent enough random function that shouldn't proc my parrying functions. 

In example, let's say you want to get random numbers from 1-30. If you call random 30 times in an alias and have it display it. That output will be the same between every call of the alias. That's because the seed is the same/That's because random isn't random. #TheMoreYouKnow

Edit: That was to pick random limbs btw bby.